[ess]

These tax avoidance schemes are very grey and are often closed down and made illegal.

In any case just because something is legal it does not make it right.

No I would not invest in an aggressive tax avoidance scheme that is setup purely with the intent to reduce tax to a minimum.

[ess]

I'm sure there are similarly legal loop halls in benefits. I know nothing on this topic but did once hear of someone that rented a room they never used so that their partner could keep all their benefits as a single adult with children.

[chrysostom]

In any case just because something is legal it does not make it right.

So you dictate your own morality? It's fine if you do, but where does it stop?

No I would not invest in an aggressive tax avoidance scheme that is setup purely with the intent to reduce tax to a minimum.

But if it was set up to put your tax contributions proportionally on a par with a majority of the population?

I did once hear of someone that rented a room they never used so that their partner could keep all their benefits as a single adult with children.

[ess]

Yes I take responsibility for my own actions.

Your dreaming if you think anyone ever joins these schemes to pay the average joe rate of tax.

[chrysostom]

*you're

Of my 3 questions, you answered one - and the answer you provided had no evidence to the contrary...just speculation and preconceptions.

One out of three is bad.

[ess]

If a shop accidentally gave you a much higher value item than the one you purchased, I don't think it's illegal to keep it as its not technically shoplifting* but I do think its morally wrong.

*as far as i'm aware but could be wrong.

[neilt0]

I'm glad I started this thread. It's definitely not going round in circles and it's good to see we all agree on everything.

[DevilsDuck]

If a shop accidentally gave you a much higher value item than the one you purchased, I don't think it's illegal to keep it as its not technically shoplifting* but I do think its morally wrong.

*as far as i'm aware but could be wrong.

surely that would be fraud if you knowingly accepted it and didnt tell them

[ess]

I'm glad I started this thread. It's definitely not going round in circles and it's good to see we all agree on everything.

Thankfully not everyone shares the same morality in life

[Nicola_Red]

I'm glad I started this thread. It's definitely not going round in circles and it's good to see we all agree on everything.

Mm, I'm glad about that too

It is difficult when someone whose work you respect and admire does something you consider to be morally or legally dubious, though. I understand why it's sparked such debate.

[neilt0]

If a shop accidentally gave you a much higher value item than the one you purchased, I don't think it's illegal to keep it as its not technically shoplifting* but I do think its morally wrong.

*as far as i'm aware but could be wrong.

surely that would be fraud if you knowingly accepted it and didnt tell them

That's ridiculous. If it was the store's mistake, it's their fault.

If you swapped price tags or barcodes, that is definitely fraud though.

[ess]

If a shop accidentally gave you a much higher value item than the one you purchased, I don't think it's illegal to keep it as its not technically shoplifting* but I do think its morally wrong.

*as far as i'm aware but could be wrong.

surely that would be fraud if you knowingly accepted it and didnt tell them

You only opened the box when you got home.

Anyway I just posted those analogies to give examples of other grey areas that might not be illegal but some would think they are morally wrong. Little value can come of ripping apart some simple analogies. Anyway I think the benefit one was better.

BTW i'm not sure if its analogy's or analogies, anyone please feel free to correct if that gets you going.

[DevilsDuck]

If it was the store's mistake, it's their fault.

If you swapped price tags or barcodes, that is definitely fraud though.

But if you know they have made a mistake and conceal it... That is fraud... No?

[DevilsDuck]

No word of a lie...I just commited fraud

I put 60p in the vending machice...punched in C3 and got two snickers!

[The Deadly]

No word of a lie...I just commited fraud

I put 60p in the vending machice...punched in C3 and got two snickers!

I got two free gifts in a box of Coco Pops once. I also one bought a pack of Salt n Shake crisps that had 5 salt pouches in it. I must inform the authorities.

[DevilsDuck]

exactly!

[ess]

What if you were ordering in bulk and the supplier delivered 100'000 cases of a product but you had only ordered and paid for 50'000?

Ignoring that no one counted when it was delivered and just signed it off.

[DevilsDuck]

then you dont know about it, so its not fraud...fraud is concealing the truth...if you dont know the truth, then its not fraud.

But if the company you bought it from realised they had sent too many...you counted them and told them you only had 50'000, then it would be fraud!

[neilt0]

If it was the store's mistake, it's their fault.

If you swapped price tags or barcodes, that is definitely fraud though.

But if you know they have made a mistake and conceal it... That is fraud... No?

No, it's not fraud. You could call it "dishonest" if you didn't bring it to the store's attention, but it's clearly not fraud.

[ess]

I always thought fraud was about deceiving, so ignorance is an excuse?

[MK Chris]

So you dictate your own morality? It's fine if you do, but where does it stop?

Define 'dictate your own morality' - most people have a reasonable idea of right and wrong, there are some grey areas though. People make up their own minds on whether these are right or wrong - hence most people dictate their own morality... otherwise who is going to do it for them? This shower of shit of a government we have?

I think avoiding tax when you are rich enough to pay it is morally wrong - I feel strongly enough about it that I am relatively certain that I would not engage in such activity if I were lucky enough to be in that position. I would count my blessings for being in the position in the first place - because I know what it's like to work for very little and struggle, like most people.

[DevilsDuck]

I always thought fraud was about deceiving, so ignorance is an excuse?

If you didnt know, how could you own up to it. If you did know and didnt admit it...that would be fraud.

Have I got the wrong end of the stick here.

[neilt0]

I always thought fraud was about deceiving, so ignorance is an excuse?

Exactly.

[DevilsDuck]

But if neither party know about it... How do they know!?

[chrysostom]

Toph, I think that being forced to pay a higher proportion of your income to benefit society than everyone else just because people think you can do without the money is inequality in action, and unfair. Make the 40% tax voluntary and I think you'll see the true morality of society as a whole (there would always be good people like Batman's parents who want to do the right thing).

I think my opinion of this was forged from seeing my dad work 2 jobs (a day and a night) and overall getting taxed around 45%, even though he worked incredibly hard in a deserving field (no farmer jokes please).

An interesting one about fraud. My friend who is a teaching assistant was paid over the summer months, as were her colleagues - but her contract meant she wasn't due to be paid during that time (which she didn't know), but her colleagues were. She was made to pay all the excess back and (whilst being very annoyed) understood she had to. But had to work out a payment plan.