[MK Chris]

OK, time for some serious debate...

What's your opinion on this poor girl's parents? I know they've been defended agains the criticism by some, but personally I can't understand why they left their kids in that home alone. I know they said they were checking every half hour, but surely with hindsight they can see (and should have been able to see beforehand) that the child can be long gone by then - it wouldn't take long for a determined person to break in and take someone.

I could almost (but not quite) understand if they were uneducated people, but the fact that he is a consultant cardiologist and she is a GP indicates two things: first, that they should know much much better than to leave a child on their own; and second, that they have to be on a minimum of £300,000 a year combined - they could afford an au pair, surely.

[Yudster]

I'm sure everything you say is absolutely true Topher. And I have no doubt it will haunt them forever. They don't need us banging on about it.

[Nicola_Red]

I agree with everything you said, Topher. I should also add that the hotel offered a creche service which the parents chose not to make use of.

Today everyone in my building received an email from our Chief Executive stating that the organisation is to support the appeal for donations to a fund to help search for Madeleine, and that there will be posters put up and collections circulated. It made me quite angry. I feel that the parents, not strangers, should be putting up money for this. I have no kids and have never looked after a child for more than a couple of hours at a time, but I know that you don't leave them on their own. And remember, this wasn't just one child they left, it was three.

[foot-loose]

I've considered this as well.

How close was place that they were eating to where the kids were?

i.e. could they see the front door from where they were sitting? Could it be compared to leaving the kids in a hotel room while the parents went down to get some food in the restaurant?

[Boboff]

Hmm

This needs some careful thought.

I agree with your sentiment, and on the face of it agree with you. Personally we fret if the kids are in the next room and we can't see them.

But

They did have older children and I think that does kind of put your mind at ease a bit I would think, ours are not at that age yet, so I can't say. I am not too sure however how old the other kids are.

I think if one of them is over say 12, then this would be ok to leave her to "babysit"

Thirdly I suppose one has to draw upon the fact that they must surely feel like pooh about this, and they feel so bad about this, but it is a more virtuous individual than I that could say hand on heart that they have never done something as stupid as this withn hindsight, but without any dreadful consequences.

I for example have now 3 times left the garage forecourt and reset the mileage on my clock by putting my hand through the wheel, and then turning sharply left, which crushes your arm and stops you turning, thankfully the children were at home with Paul the single 30 something with no family who we met after the locals finished stoning his house, he was happy not to charge for babysitting. which was nice.

[Mcqueen_]

Wasn't the building suppose to be patroled, and actively advertised that the children would be safe if left in the room?

I think the discussion in the press has revealed that A LOT of parents have left their children at some time when something like this could have happened. Obviously when something does go wrong, in hindsight it's easy to say they shouldn't have left them.

it wouldn't take long for a determined person to break in and take someone.

You could argue it wouldn't stop a determined person if the parents were in or not. What about the girl taken out of the bath whilst her mother was in the next room?

I bet some people have left their children in their house asleep and have gone into the garden and being further away from their children than the parents were in this case.

[Yudster]

Apparently they could see the apartment but not the door. Its not something I would have done. And I would never leave my kids in a hotel room to go to the restaurant unless there was a reliable service checking on them at least four times an hour. And I wouldn't do that unless I had absolute confidence in the hotel staff doing it. BUT - they made a massive mistake, for which they will be punished grievously every day for the rest of their lives. The only thing worse than having a child abducted and (I believe probably) murdered is having a child abducted and murdered and knowing that you could have prevented it. I can't find it in myself to condemn them, they will be doing that for themselves.

Nicola - I completely agree about the financial stuff.

[Yudster]

They did have older children

No, the other two were younger, they are 18 month old twins.

[Boboff]

Has anyone considered this may all be a publicity stunt ?

[MK Chris]

(I believe probably) murdered

I'm almost certain that she's either dead or she'll never be seen again (or both). I know that stranger things have happened but it's extremely rare.

I also take your point about them punishing themselves - but they're highly unlikely to read this.

[DemonHorse]

Has anyone considered this may all be a publicity stunt ?

not even Bagfer

[kendra k]

this case reminds me of a lot of criticism of the media with stories like this in america. of course she's a cute blonde girl from an affluent family who went missing when her parents did a stupid thing. (toddlers being left alone? seriously?) i'm sure there are lots of kids who have gone missing since then who are equally sad but don't have such a compelling/sensational story, so they're not getting the same publicity. that's what makes me sick.

i hope she'll be recovered, but i also hope lots of missing children are found safely.

[Boboff]

They did have older children

No, the other two were younger, they are 18 month old twins.

They wouldn't be any good then !

Well in that case it does kind of seem rather silly thing to do, but it is still sad, but as Kendra says, there are loads of tragedies which do not get reported or supported to this extent, if it was a Polish baby missing in Bradford you wouldn't get J K Rowling donating £1 million to find her I bet, but all human life is each, and should be cherished whoever you are.

[Yudster]

I also take your point about them punishing themselves - but they're highly unlikely to read this.

I know - I wasn't saying lets not discuss it, more really that I can't bring myself to criticise them. We all make mistakes, thank god none of yours or mine are likely to come back on us like theirs, but they could you know.

I was at a friend's house the other week, riding with another friend and my three year old, who had been riding his pony. After we had done, I was chatting with my friends and Joel (baby Yudster) was playing on the climbing frame - its a large garden and I couldn't see all of it, but I knew I had shut all the gates so I didn't worry when he wandered out of sight. 15 minutes later I go to look for him - and the side gate is wide open, someone has come in and left it. There is a busy road a few yards to the front, and five or six other possible places he could have wandered off too and effectively got lost. I spent what seemed like ages (probably about twenty minutes max) running up and down the road, searching the churchyard and the farmyards, the housing estate behind the church - nothing. As I went back around the back of the house, I saw him happily playing in the Wendy House (which I hadn't looked in because it is usually locked due to the possessive nature of the child who owns it). Small incident, no big deal - but I have never been so terrified in my life, it was three days before I could sleep properly again, and I would never wish even that on anyone else, let alone what the McCann's must be feeling.

[SAV1OUR]

I remember the au pair story in America, all the courtroom drama played out on the telly. "Did she dunnit?? didn't she??"

But that was a long time ago, and in this case they're nabbing the local weirdo just to see if he'll crack and sign the confession form. One thing I do know is that the Police there are not used to all of this seriousness, and are probably more used to finding a stolen Golf club from one of Madeliene's parents, should that be the offence, thats apparently the main leaisurely activity in the resort.

I've been in some abysmal standard of accomodation when I've been abroad, we were pretty certain that the cleaners had stolen a necklace and an MP3 Player throughout our stay in Spain last year. Makes you wonder about when you hire a safe for 'valuable items' - nothing could be more valuable than a child.

[Yudster]

I certainly agree that on face value, the local police seem a bit unprepared for this kind of thing - they seem quite surprised at the level of interest. But its only face value, you can't really tell. And it does look a bit like they are trying to find someone to blame, rather than trying to find out who did it. But again, yoiu can't really tell from the outside.

[MK Chris]

I remember the au pair story in America

Louise Woodward?

[kendra k]

i forgot about her.

this story seems akin to [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalee_Holloway"]natalee holloway[/url]. she was the american girl who was kidnapped/murdered in aruba. the media loves her and forgave her for any stupidity because she was cute and blonde. the aruban police were totally out of the league and still are, which made the whole thing worse. and of course there was lots of interference from the press. at least they had some suspects to vilify.

[SAV1OUR]

Yeah that was the one, some stories just stick in the mind forever, as certainly will this, its that 'turned my back for a minute thing' like with James Bulger. Thats why everyone fears the worst because all sorts of harrowing stories with the most daunting outcomes have hit our papers in recent years. I think deep deep down we're just praying for a happy ending this time.

[Yudster]

Slightly off topic, but related - I have been wondering if there is any connection between the enormous input and presence of Sky News in Portugal at the moment, they seem to have a much bigger presence there than the BBC or ITV, and the fact that the Sky News website appears to have been unavailable all day today? Its not unusual for the server to go down for an hour or so every now and then - but all day? It was just a thought.

[MK Chris]

I only really use the BBC News web site to be honest and it's very rare that it's down - even with huge breaking news like the London bombings, they seem to be able to handle the load quite well.

[Yudster]

I was thinking more along the lines that they might have been taken off for some reason - I wondered if the local police were unhappy about the "exclusives" that Mr Murat and his family keep giving Sky, and the access they seem to have to absolutely everybody who has anything to do with the investigation over there.

[SAV1OUR]

I've a similar enquiring mind to that of Yudster's. There are certain stories that are so huge you just cant imagine the media coping without them. I've read comments over the past 2 weeks (much more cynical) about how the parents are somehow 'in on this'. As your post suggests Murdoch is in on it too, the mind can only boggle in times of such great mystery. I've resigned to the theory that the clumsy border control allowed the snatcher's vehicle to to get far and away. Those first few hours were so crucial and everyone involved knows that all too well.

[MK Chris]

Ah right. It seems up now anyway.

[Yudster]

I'm still getting nothing - maybe its our end. Ah well, it was a nice almost-conspiracy-theory while it lasted!