[S4B]

Following on from the text speak thread in 'General' I felt like geting a few things off my chest that annoy me.

Schools today (God I sound like I'm my mother!) and parents don't seem to teach basic things that will serve it's pupils well in later life. Most of my friends, colleagues and acquaintances are about 10 years younger than me and I find myself having to explain the most rudimentary ideas in words that we (and by we I mean anyone older than about 33) would have heard on Playschool.

For instance:

1. Basic grammar - and I mean basic. Pronouns are misused, punctuation ignored, and 'of' & 'have' regularly swapped for no apparent reason. I could go on but you get the idea.
2. Geography - my knowledge of capital cities, counties and countries is not vast but at least I know that Newcastle is not in Scotland, that Brazil is in South America and that Kazakhstan actually does exist and is not just a figment of Borat's vivid imagination
3. Maths - Calculators are needed to do basic addition, subtraction, multiplycation and division. (say no more)
4. Basic office tasks - using carbon paper when filling in banking slips, filing chronologically ("chrono what?" I was asked by a graduate!), answering a telephone woth more than just a grumpy "hi"
5. Washing up - yes I know we didn't learn that at school but now everyone has dishwashers even washing a cup up properly seems too much for many teenagers.
6. Ironing - people just can't do it anymore, mainly because their mums do it all for them


I could rant on for ages but I won't as I'm sure you all have plenty to fire back at me both agreeing and disagreeing and probably pointing out every error I've made in this post. (I'm not perfect guys, never said I was) I just worry that this country is not actually preparing kids for real life, life where Mummy and Daddy (or guardians) are not about to sort out every mess.

I also know that this doesn't apply to everyone, before I'm accused of tarring everyone with the same brush, but it does seem to be an ever increasing majority.

[Boboff]

Well my 5 year old is taught "choices" they get loads of tables to chose from, why through play encourages them to develop against the National Curriculum

My 7 year old is taught to read and write, do Maths, Science, RE, arts and crafts, Geography and other "social" type things.

They both their reports last week and the boys was "He's really funny, and gets on with most of the class, the ones he doesn't get on with he is learning not to batter" the 7 year old was "very able, helpful, and best of all on school trips is very well behaved and has excellent manners"

So for all your comments, you generalize, with help and support from Parents, School is better now than it was in our day. Give it 10 years and things WILL improve, what is going on at grass roots now is excellent.

also with regard to language I think this is probably learnt from our generation, as a parent you should talk to your children actively, and correct poor grammar always, that's what I do and my children should be ok, I hope !

[Ballbag]

Whilst waiting in a camp site office the other week I came across an episode of "holiday swap" or something along the lines, where a delightful family of four from Kent who have holiday'd in Tenerife fore ever, were having a change and going to Egypt for 2 weeks of culture. When they found out destination the conversation went roughly thusly.

Mum: "Egypt? Wow, where's that."
young son: "It's in Africa."
Mum: "No it aint."
Son: "Yes it is."
Dad and Mum together: "No it aint in Africa don't be fick."
Son: "It is, we did it in school."
Dad: "It aint in Africa, it's near Spain aint it?"
Mum: "Yeah, it's part of Spain aint it?"
Dad: "I fink so."
Son: "Really? I thought it was in Africa."
Dad: "You two, I dunno wot they teach you at skool.......... you're so fick. " (Clips son playfully around the head).
Son: "Oh, I thought it was in Africa."
Mum and Dad together: "Derrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr." (mimcing a disabled person).

So you say it's the schools letting our kids down?

[Boboff]

Excellent Baggie, very very true observation of the way things are currently.

I thought the Ganges was in Egypt , but apparently it' In denial !

[S4B]

Boboff, I'm afraid we're in a minority. My kids have very good gramamr but my boys frequently correct the teacher and ours is one of the best primary schools around. My two got really good reports too but so did the kids who do their homework at my house on occasion and their handwriting, spelling, punctuation and grammar is absolutely dreadful.

Bagfer, I did say that parents are letting their kids down too. Beautifully illustrated point though.

[MK Chris]

(and by we I mean anyone older than about 33) would have heard on Playschool.

I think Playschool was on for longer than you think. I am 23 and I have (relatively vague) memories of it.

1. Basic grammar - and I mean basic. Pronouns are misused, punctuation ignored, and 'of' & 'have' regularly swapped for no apparent reason. I could go on but you get the idea.

I agree on this, basic grammatical errors annoy me as well.

However, I struggle and always have struggled (and I feel maybe I shouldn't) with knowing the differences between nouns, adjectives and all the others.

2. Geography - my knowledge of capital cities, counties and countries is not vast but at least I know that Newcastle is not in Scotland, that Brazil is in South America and that Kazakhstan actually does exist and is not just a figment of Borat's vivid imagination

My Geography is distinctly average, I think I said that yesterday in the chat room. The most annoying thing is people who think Sydney is the capital of Australia or (worse) that Barcelona is the capital of Spain.

3. Maths - Calculators are needed to do basic addition, subtraction, multiplycation and division. (say no more)

My mental maths is abysmal, I am the first to admit that. I could never play darts for a team because my subtraction is far too slow to chalk scores. I know someone who can pretty much do a complete shop, noting prices as he goes along and by the time he gets to the till, he knows to a few pence what the price will be, I couldn't do that.

(Ahem - multiplication. Sorry.)

4. Basic office tasks - using carbon paper when filling in banking slips, filing chronologically ("chrono what?" I was asked by a graduate!), answering a telephone woth more than just a grumpy "hi"

Phone etiquette was drummed into me when I worked in a call centre, I've done filing as well. You don't learn things like that at school, you learn it in a school leavers job. It is, of course, up to the school leaver whether or not they wish to get a job in the first place.

5. Washing up - yes I know we didn't learn that at school but now everyone has dishwashers even washing a cup up properly seems too much for many teenagers.

I have never lived in a house that had a dishwasher and have always been made to do 'chores'. I'm pleased about this because I'm accustomed to it and now that I'm getting my own place I don't have to get used to it. Any kids I have will have the same responsibilities.

6. Ironing - people just can't do it anymore, mainly because their mums do it all for them

Again, I've done my ironing since I was about 13. My mum hates it and hasn't done any since 1997, when my dad left. Her other half does it now and she does some of the other stuff instead.

[S4B]

Ah Topher, that's why we love you so much you're the exception, well about some things anyway.

[S4B]

Ah I was talking to a teacher on friday who was telling me that they're scraping GCSE's and the new A level system in about 2 years because there's far too much cheating on course work (she herself admitted to having done some of her son's coursework for him). I'm not saying that schools are bad and students thick my point is that the basic "rules" that we used to learn are no longer important and that we ignore them at our peril.

On the question of exams being harder well

A - We weren't allowed set texts in our exam halls
B- I'd love to see GCSE students today sit an O level paper and have it marked to O level standard
C- If I'd been allowed a calculator in my maths exam I'd have got an A not just a C (incidently the year I did my O level maths you had to get 94% to get a C!)
D - The pressure that kids are put under nowadays for their exams is ridiculous and that it should be done on percentages again not a mark to be attained. i.e. you should be in the top 5% of the country to get an A* not just attain a certain score.

Maybe I'm just too old fashioned but if everyone passes how do employers manage to find the person most suitable for a position? It's all to do with the nanny state not wanting anyone to fail anything anymore - like no winners at sports day. When it comes to Working Life it is highly competetive and the current grading system does not prepare young people for that either. Some people fail because they're not good enough, it's a tough lesson but one that needs to be learnt earlier so that failure can be learnt from and performance improved.

Maybe I shouldn't have started this thread, I'm getting on my soap box

[MK Chris]

You can ensure I what?

I feel it's right to be pedantic in this thread.

[S4B]

It really is okay here Topher. I could have written this one for you couldn't I?

[Boboff]

Indeed Toph.
S4b, the whole can't loose thing is dead and buried now I think. You can loose, but in a positive environment without fear of failure, there is a difference between coming second, and coming first, and not actually worrying about it.

*sits back and waits for lewd comment*

[S4B]

*considers lewd comment but decides not to pander to Boboff*

I don't believe it is Boboff - at school sports days around here everyone gets a rosette not just the placed competitors. It's a myth that it's been buried.

[Boboff]

Thats why Schumackers wife is always sad, he always want to come first.

Oh, I am not sure then, they all get certificates of participation at the schools here, but they get awards for 1st 2nd & 3rd as well though.

It's ok to have an award to turning up, just as long as you can still compete isn't it ?

[S4B]

Is it though? Doesn't it stop the others feeling proud of their achievement and take away that feeling of being special? I was always rubbish at sports but good at written work so I got praise then and the people who weren't so good at the written work usually had their moment of glory on sports day.

[Boboff]

No I think all kids understand that the whole having a certificate for turning up is bollocks, it's just a waste of time to placate those of us who feel sorry for the fat kid who never wins anything

[S4B]

I'm not sure they do though. I think the whole ethos has changed entirely since I was at school especially judging by the comments I hear from the kids that seem to come to play with my kids every night. They seem to think that it really is just the taking part that's important. I think it's important to take part but that winning is the whole idea of competing. Or have I been using the word 'competition' in the wrong context for years?

[Boboff]

I really don't know, my experience seems completely different to yours though, and saying what you say based on what you have seen I can agree that you are correct in holding your opinion, but as I say, from what I see I Think that the whole "it's the taking part that is important" thing is dead and buried.

I think though that what ever is true we both hope that I am right !

If anything the SAT's are more competition in schools than we faced.

My little girl didn't like it when I said she had to work harder as she was not in the top grading on her SAT's, she got upset so I said that there must be at least 3 or 4 people in her glass better than her at reading and writing etc, and her job next year in year 3 was to beat them ! She understood this, and I don't consider myself a bad parent for encouraging her to achieve more. However I did say I was also extremely pleased with the other comments about her being polite, and well mannered, but a polite and well manered looser is still a looser ![I didn't really say the last bit by the way that was a joke]

[S4B]

I think the SATS are something to be tolerated not judged against. Kids at primary schools are too young to be streamed. My kids have to sit the 11+ in September and it's upsetting and distressing them because they don't think they're good enough to go to the grammar school.

[MK Chris]

I thought SATs were being abolished?

[S4B]

I hope so, it's too much stress for the kids and too much paperwork for the teachers

[Gaspode_The_Wonder_Dog]

I can't be bothered reading all that but I'm guessing it goes "blah blah blah the youth of today.... blah blah blah we could solve all maths problems in our head blah blah everyone was more intelligent than kids today blah blah".

Balls.

[MK Chris]

I left school at 16 with six GCSEs, nothing above a C. I struggled slightly at first but I'm enjoying the job I'm in now and they must value me a bit because in the two and a half years I've been here, my salary has gone up 25%.

[Gaspode_The_Wonder_Dog]

or they undervalued you at first?

I'm suprised at that Mr Topher as you seem quite intelligent. You must be a good liar.

*rings Mrs Topher*

[MK Chris]

Yeah maybe they undervalued me at first.

I consider myself to be relatively bright, I hesitate to say above or below average intelligence, because I don't know what that is. I was a dreamer at school though, I have a short attention span and wasn't good at listening.

[foot-loose]

I have a short attention span and wasn't good at listening.

Me as well. I like jelly. I like it with cream.