[Vivienne]

No-one said that; although they may have been thinking it loudly.

what in the Hell is that supposed to mean?

[kendra k]

i was thinking it so loud, my thoughts woke my partner up. he just asked, "who's this viv person, and why do you think she's lying about looking good in makeup?" i gotta tame my brain.

[Vivienne]

How dare he post that... I'm fizzing here... and I've got pmt, which is making me fizz more.

[Vivienne]

i was thinking it so loud, my thoughts woke my partner up. he just asked, "who's this viv person, and why do you think she's lying about looking good in makeup?" i gotta tame my brain.

tame your brain and everything else.

[Vivienne]

Ok this is going to be hard for me but I'm going to defend Viv!

I think that many of the points she made that you disagree with Topher are because you are not an average bloke!

In many ways women are considered 'second class' - the wages are still not equal in many businesses for instance. I still have people suprised that I work full time as I have young kids and have had stand up rows with some who say my kids will be emotionally stunted because of it.

Women are expected to be smiley and happy - if I'm not smiling people assume I'm in a mood or have PMT when I could merely be having a quiet day (doesn't happen very often but it does happen)

We don't 'have to' wear make up to look attractive, we just like to wear it, it's a confidence thing as well and if more men complimented us when we weren't made up then we probably wouldn't wear any. There's nothing wrong in enhancing what we have though and if it makes someone feel good about themselves then surely that's a good thing?

Viv is quite right in us not being allowed to have off days! This is true in the workplace as well as at home or just out and about. I blame the press for this - people, in general, expect women to look good at all times. To be honest it's mainly other women who make us feel the need to do this!

So Topher be proud that you are not an average man! (Oh and next time you think "my god she looks a mess" or "look at the state on her" remember the girl in question could just be having an off day!)

Very, VERY well written, S4B!! I've had a half day, have been at the pool, and whilst I was in the shower, I opened my eyes to be greeted with a female with black all around her eyes!! She looked ashamed, and I said to her "jumped in the pool with your mascara on?" She started to laugh!! And it made me think of this thread no less, and how nasty some guy probably would have been when greeted with what he would consider a less than "perfect" female. I had decided to be nice.

[kendra k]

i probably would have called her raccoon in my head, but then again i think makeup is silly.

[Vivienne]

what I would call you is largely unpostable - literally !! The gal made a mistake - big deal.... I was at the pool with my waterproof mascara!! It isn't necessarily silly! I have quite sensitive skin and am prone to some redness... foundation, for example, balances this out.... what it doesn't mean is that I think I'm an ugly bitch without it. And who is anyone to judge me anyhow, or anyone else? What gives anyone a right to comment? You can only comment, I feel, on anyone, if you are physically perfect yourself.

[kendra k]

you're really touchy? p.m.t. or not. i think you can comment on whatever you want if you recognize people will do the same to you. also, thinking something isn't as rude as actually saying something, is it? or are you the thought police now, too?

wearing makeup doens't mean you're ugly without it, though lots of people feel ugly without it. improperly applying makeup will make you look worse i think, but that's part of the reason i don't really bother. (that and i have out of control eyelashes.)

viv, seriously, stop taking everything so personally. i know you're not a teenager anymore, but you sure as hell act like it sometimes.

[Vivienne]

Re: teenager stuff - I could pretty much say the same about you!! I can be the thought police if you like!!

If you have out of control eyelashes - cut them off !!!

[S4B]

I'm ugly with or without it!

[Vivienne]

not from your pic, you aren't at all!!

[Yudster]

I can't be doing with it. Takes up too much time, and makes me look like someone else. I find it bit disconcerting.

[Vivienne]

It does take up time, esp. if you are rushed in the mornings!! by the way: re: the user name - it's been like that for a while now... I added the numbers ages ago!

[catherine]

This is battle of the sexes not battle of the same sex!

[S4B]

Ah pictures can be deceiving hun! Trust me! That may not be me at all.

[Vivienne]

well, Catherine, all I can is it's just typical... anywhere you find a group of females, there's guaranteed to be an incident of some kind!! Mind you, Console appears to fall into the category too... perhaps he was a female in a previous life !!

[Yudster]

Or this one. As he says, science has moved on .........

[Vivienne]

he has to be careful... I know something about him that he has been up to, yuds!!

[foot-loose]

Someone said earlier about men judging women on how they look - in my experience, its women that judge other women a lot more. I cant remember i have ever heard any of my male friends saying that a girl looks a state or whatever (unless she is absolutly trollied) but ive heard a lot of my female friends bitching about not only strangers, but people they are friendly with. Yes, I think girls feel that they have to live up to a certain standard, but I'm not convinced thats because of guys...

[Ballbag]

You can only comment, I feel, on anyone, if you are physically perfect yourself.

With that in mind let me begin. From what I can gather Viv, you are a very decent looking person although the photo I base that statement on seems quite old, so this may be deceiving dependant on how kind the years have been.

[Vivienne]

thanks, balls, I can assure you I have changed little, but it was nice of you to say that... i'm gonna get a more recent pic done, and get foot-loose to post it at some point.

[catherine]

My best mate was walking down the street and a group of builders were there and one was on the phone and said 'we're on so an so road theres a fat bird walking past' shes never felt so humiliated in her life, shes not even fat shes a size 12!

[Vivienne]

Disgusting , Catherine... I was walking along a road locally when a group of young lads were commenting on me (whistling and stuff!!).. When I didn't respond, they became abusive, and I had to run down a local street in order to get away from them... unbelievable.
Scary stuff.

[MK Chris]

Very, VERY well written, S4B!! I've had a half day, have been at the pool, and whilst I was in the shower, I opened my eyes to be greeted with a female with black all around her eyes!! She looked ashamed, and I said to her "jumped in the pool with your mascara on?" She started to laugh!! And it made me think of this thread no less, and how nasty some guy probably would have been when greeted with what he would consider a less than "perfect" female. I had decided to be nice.

What makes you think a bloke would be nicer than a woman? OK you decided not to be nasty, but she was in the women's shower room looking ashamed, right (I am assuming you shower in the ladies)? Would that not indicate to you that she was worried going into the women's shower room and getting nasty comments?

I know women (my mum included) who hate working with other women because of the bitchyness you generally get in a female-dominated environment. That said, my mum is a bit of a "tom-boy" and finds FHM much more interesting than soppy women's mags. She's not the only one who doesn't like working with predominantly women though.

[Vivienne]

yeh, I shower in the ladies!! well done! tho' I wouldn't mind going into the males' section!!! yeh, I would assume she was worried about nasty comments, hence I made the first move, and was NICE. I don't really like working with other women... one of my best jobs in the past was on a building site (doing admin. work).