[MK Chris]

OK, time for a serious debate (sorry).

I have been reading an article on the BBC News web site, which debates the moral issues surrounding purchasing and using the works (however good they may be) of someone who has been convicted of a serious crime (in this case paedophilia).

The backstory, for those who can't be bothered to read the article, is about a guy called Brian Davey, a teacher and writer of educational books (I believe about teaching recorder), whose victim and stepdaughter has waived her anonymity in order to request his books to be banned from sale.

From what I can gather, the guy's books are about as good as you can buy on that particular subject, but the victim believes they were written with the aim of getting more victims. Even if they were not, is it moral to buy such literature or works of someone who has been convicted of something so heinous?

The article goes on to mention several prominent people from history, who may have had (or did have) darker sides to their personality, such as Eric Gill, a sculptor who abused his children and had sex with his sister and dog. This was a man who (supposedly) was a catholic and created the Stations of the Cross in Westminster Cathedral, amongst other things.

Personally I don't think there's any clear black and white, but it would be interesting to hear other's opinions on the matter. In my opinion, Davey's books shouldn't be sold, for a number of reasons; the first being that since the man is still alive, he will not only presumably be able to claim royalties from his book sales (does anyone know what happens to royalties owed to a convicted criminal?), but also it sends the message to him that people condone his activity. Were I a parent, I don't think I'd be particularly pleased that my child's teacher was using the teachings of such a man, however unrelated to his crimes, who had committed such appalling acts. The other reason that since this is a relatively recent crime, the victim(s) is (are) still alive and well and the sale of these books only torments them further. It's a subject matter (serious crime in general) that interests me greatly.

* Goes off to find a thread with lots of arguments and pointless comments *

[Ballbag]

I agree.

[Zoot]

I Studied Eric Gill at University, and had several lectures all about him.
Funny the private stuff was never mentioned, I didn't know that till just now.

[Yudster]

I don't think that there should be legistlation to prevent "bad people" doing their work and making money from it. But I would spend my money elsewhere out of choice.

[S4B]

I have a huge problem with this as it's not my job to censor what people read. I don't tend to stock things by paedophiles though and certainly don't stock Brian Davey - never heard of him. I think it's morally wrong for them to make money from wrongdoings however many True Crime books seem to be written by criminals and Football Hooliganism books seem to be written by self proclaimed hooligans.

I have to be very careful what I say but...... there are lots of good books out there written by non criminals, why don't people buy those instead.

[Ballbag]

Because slut, people are interested in real life tales of woe. It's just human intreague.

One of the most read pages on wikipedia was the page on the 9/11 attacks, we all know what happened, so why do so many read it? Because it's real life tragedy, and people are interested in that.

I'm with Yuds, give people the choice, if they want to buy it, then let them.

[S4B]

I was referring Mr Balls to the fact that you can buy books on education by people other than paedophiles! I am more than aware that the whole country is obsessed with how miserable other peoples lives are! I was purely commenting in that last sentence about how you can buy books on these subjects from people other than criminals! Don;t be so quick to find fault in everything I say!

[Ballbag]

Don;t be so quick to find fault in everything I say!

Shouldn't that be "Don't" and not "Don;t".

[S4B]

Yes it should but you made me soo cross I missed the ' and hit the ;! I note there's no apology!

[MK Chris]

On reflection, banning is probably quite an "iron handed" attitude, but were I a parent, as Yudster says, I think I would definitely go for the alternatives. That decision, however, is obviously down to the parent. Were a teacher of my (strictly hypothetical) child to send him or her home with such a book, I think I would have to question their judgement.

Also (questioning my own argument now - I'm so fickle) were the man to be released from prison, he clearly will never be allowed to work with children again but he will have to make some sort of a living, so would gaining royalties from his books, royalties that he is by no means getting as a consequence of his crimes, be a bad thing?

As s4b says, criminals do write books and people buy them and as Ballbag says, there is sufficient intrigue and demand for someone to publish these. As stated above, I take a great interest in true crime and have purchased a few books on the subject, though none (to my knowledge) have been written by convicted criminals.

As for the hooliganism books cited as an example, I'm sceptical of whether such books can be taken as accurate accounts, since they are written by criminals, which, pretty much by definition makes the author dishonest. That's not to say that a book written by a journalist or author is certainly going to be any more accurate, but I would trust it more.

[Console]

I don't really see the moral dilemma here. Does the fact that he's still in prison now make a difference, or would it be the same if he'd served his sentence and then written the book?

The following is a really inappropriate hypothetical situation, but if Einstein had turned out to be a pedophile, or a murderer or something, should we, as a human race, have discarded his works and conclusion just because of that? I really hope the answer to that question is no.

[fish heads]

It really is a thorny issue, but my personal feelings are that the book cannot be banned outright because of this - because if we do that then it undermines a lot of what this country stands for (freedom of speech for example). If we ban this then how far down the major crime list do we go when banning books written by criminals. If he'd written a book about his exploits as a pedophile, to put it unfortunately very crassly, then no doubt it should be 100% banned, but this isn't, it's a book which is essentially unrelated to the crime he committed, unlike aeformationed True Crime/murderer books. Ok the victim states it was groom more children - and maybe this is true, I'm certainly not saying it isn't - but this is purely her opinion and not fact and as such action should not and will not be taken.

However she is right to speak out - I imagine if I was a parent I'd want to know about it and because of her consumers can make an informed choice to buy or not to buy - or for shops to sock or not to stock - at the end of the day in this case we should have a choice and not have the choice made for us. I also imagine if I was a passionate musician then maybe I'd have different views again about losing what sounds like a valuable teaching aid.

Interesting topic Topher btw

[S4B]

I think the point is that he is trying to make money out of educating children when this is obviously an inappropriate career choice

[MK Chris]

I don't really see the moral dilemma here. Does the fact that he's still in prison now make a difference, or would it be the same if he'd served his sentence and then written the book?

Interesting point, I think my personal choice would still be not to purchase the book.

if Einstein had turned out to be a pedophile, or a murderer or something, should we, as a human race, have discarded his works and conclusion just because of that? I really hope the answer to that question is no.

Another interesting point. Were this true, my opinion of him as a man would drop through the floor, but I think the analogy is different; there are no other alternatives to Einstein's work, he discovered a lot of things that have been put to good use in today's society. By contrast, this guy is a recorder teacher, however good, but there are other recorder teachers that do essentially the same thing.

It really is a thorny issue, but my personal feelings are that the book cannot be banned outright because of this - because if we do that then it undermines a lot of what this country stands for (freedom of speech for example). If we ban this then how far down the major crime list do we go when banning books written by criminals. If he'd written a book about his exploits as a pedophile, to put it unfortunately very crassly, then no doubt it should be 100% banned, but this isn't, it's a book which is essentially unrelated to the crime he committed, unlike aeformationed True Crime/murderer books. Ok the victim states it was groom more children - and maybe this is true, I'm certainly not saying it isn't - but this is purely her opinion and not fact and as such action should not and will not be taken.

However she is right to speak out - I imagine if I was a parent I'd want to know about it and because of her consumers can make an informed choice to buy or not to buy - or for shops to sock or not to stock - at the end of the day in this case we should have a choice and not have the choice made for us. I also imagine if I was a passionate musician then maybe I'd have different views again about losing what sounds like a valuable teaching aid.

Interesting topic Topher btw

I'm pretty much 100% in agreement with that actually.

[MK Chris]

Note I didn't mean to agree with the "interesting topic" comment, I'm not that up myself, I just forgot to delete it from the quote.

[Gaspode_The_Wonder_Dog]

Similar questions have always been related to Wagner and his anti-semitism.

I don't like that he profits from the books and I think any schools or public organisations should incorporate the morality of the situation in to their purchasing but I don't think the book should be banned at all.

[kendra k]

i'm all about access to information and against censorship. it's one of the main reasons i'm going to be a librarian. i don't see the issue if the guy is making profits off of books that aren't about his crime. if he were to write about about molesting young girls, that would be different because then he would actually profit from the crime.

i think people just like to be upset.

[Gaspode_The_Wonder_Dog]

I'm upset you think I might be upset by that.

[kendra k]

i'm upset that you're upset that you felt included in that blanket statement.

[Gaspode_The_Wonder_Dog]

I'm now upset you are excluding me from your blanket statements.

[Sidders]

Should Mein Kampf be banned? I think not.

[kendra k]

why to jump to hyperbole sidders. bravo!

[Console]

Should Mein Kampf be banned? I think not.

Hey, Godwin's Law.

[Boboff]

Freedom of speech and actions are fundamentals of our society, you can't censure someone, even if they fiddle with kids, now the chapter on grooming in the work should be deleted, and the whole importance of taking your recorder charges swimming on a regular basis is also way off beam, but the fingering chapter so to speak should remain.

As someone said once about let them that is without sin throw the first stone..... Oh Mother ! you would have to walk a mile in another mans shoes to know that he is without sin, and you would then have his shoes and he would be a mile away, which is good.

Seriously.. ( yes Foots the above was meant to be a joke ) There is a branch of society that considers Homosexuality as grossly wrong as Pedophilia, who morally therefore has the right to say that is we judge and censor for one sexual perversion, should we not treat all "perverts" in the same way, and if we did that the Male portion of the Library would shrink dramatically.

Please for clarity I do not hold that Homosexuals are perverts, not in any way, but I am saying that some people claim this to be so on Moral grounds, as we all clearly do with reference to Pedophillia.

[Ballbag]

Another interesting point. Were this true, my opinion of him as a man would drop through the floor, but I think the analogy is different; there are no other alternatives to Einstein's work, he discovered a lot of things that have been put to good use in today's society. By contrast, this guy is a recorder teacher, however good, but there are other recorder teachers that do essentially the same thing.

Topher the Bopher, you can't weigh up the bad things people have done against the goodness they've done. Was Harold Shipman a lesser murderer than others because he was a respectable doctor, as opposed to a illegal immigrant murderer?

Yes it should but you made me soo cross I missed the ' and hit the ;! I note there's no apology!

I note there was no apology either.