[Vivienne]

o Console, i can read!! in different languages too.

i see you are referring to you your attitude... well, if we all had to have your bored attitude to the news/current affairs, problems/crimes would not get solved. The public are often a great help.

Big crimes = arson, rape, murder. you do, you die. simple. Fact. i'm raging. i'm really truly raging at this thread.

[Vivienne]

i

They give people they do these things to life sentences, so they in turn are clearly undeserving of a life at all.

No, they're considered to be undeserving of freedom, not life.

They DO NOT deserve a life.. they do things that mean their victims have to re-build their lives, often with no support of any kind.

[Vivienne]

i
Also, why should one mistake, that probably took seconds to make, outweigh everything else you've ever done in your entire life? Yes, there needs to be some sort of repercussion for the mistake, but ending someone's life because of that event should not be allowed.

Seconds to make... it depends on WHAT you do! Some things are simply unforgiveable... you try telling a rape victim's family, if, for example, the victim has killed herself on account of the crime, that he should only be locked up for a set period of time.

[MK Chris]

I can't tell you how strongly I feel that in all cases, being handed the death penalty by a court of law is wrong. There is no excuse for what these people do; but there is no excuse for doing it to them either. I really believe that death penalties should be confined to the past, when society was generally more barbaric than today. I understand that prison is not always able to reform a person, but such people, should the crime fit, should be locked away forever. I realise the prisons are struggling with the number of inmates at the moment anyway, but I wouldn't like to think about the number of people in prisons who shouldn't be. I believe I may have said this before, but Jeffrey Archer, who have never posed any kind of risk to people, should have been hit in the pocket instead.

I do agree that the armed response Police should be able to fire at someone, only on the grounds that innocent lives are sufficiently endangered by the culprit.

I'm sure I read somewhere that the lethal injection is far from a humane way of killing, that the substances they put in the injection cause some considerable agony before the recipient loses consciousness.

This is very much an argument where people have strong opinions whatever side they're on and no amount of arguing is going to persuade them otherwise.

[Vivienne]

i believe it comes down to this ;

if you've been a victim, you will be totally on the side of justice/capital punishment, Topher
if you haven't, i think you're clueless.

[MK Chris]

I believe that as a victim, you are emotionally involved and therefore generally unable to make a balanced decision.

[Console]

if we all had to have your bored attitude to the news/current affairs, problems/crimes would not get solved. The public are often a great help.

I never said I get bored by all current affairs/news, I said this Rhys Jones thing bored me, as did/does the Madeline thing; it doesn't interest me, that doesn't mean, however, that if it was my job to solve it I wouldn't be motivated to.

Big crimes = arson, rape, murder. you do, you die. simple. Fact. i'm raging. i'm really truly raging at this thread.

Arson? Some people commit arson as part of insurance fraud, should they be killed for trying to cheat a business out of some money?

And it's not a 'Fact' as that isn't what happens.

They DO NOT deserve a life.. they do things that mean their victims have to re-build their lives, often with no support of any kind.

And if they are wrongly convicted...?

i believe it comes down to this ;

if you've been a victim, you will be totally on the side of justice/capital punishment, Topher
if you haven't, i think you're clueless.

If you've been a victim then your judgment may very well be impaired and you may not be able to make a fair, rational decision about the subject.

[Vivienne]

Tosh! The mentally unstable numbers are the people who do these things, never the victims. i'm so mad at this thread, i'm actually physically shaking.

[Walter Sobchak]

I do however believe that Rapists and Pedophiles should be castrated.

Don't know why you (mis)qouted me there, wev!

many people who are raped may not necessarily tell even their own families, and go on to suffer in silence, feeling frightened of strangers, or frightened there may be a re-occurence. This thread has made me absolutely mad.

I agree viv, but did you actually read what I put, or was the red-mist affecting how you read it? (I'm not being sarcastic).

I know people that have been raped, so i'm not a rape apologist.
In fact I don't think we can move on in the way we deal with people like this until its accepted that this is not a normal way for someone to treat someone else, getting angry about a discussion of this type doesn't help.
What zoot said points at zoot believing (quite rightfully) that the actions of rapists isn't acceptable, thats a good starting point in my book, if everyone believed that rape wouldn't exist.

But we know it does, and to treat it alongside other crimes (I'm not talking about the level of crime here) isn't right IMO.
If you looked at this at base level then Rape = crime, Smoking in Car = crime.
Yet the two are a million miles apart, and whereas smoking in the car could be a mistake, or even a failure to recognise wrongdoing, rape cannot and should not be treated in the same way.
Its an abyssmal and Adnormal crime, That is how people should view it.

[Vivienne]

[quote="Console"][And if they are wrongly convicted...?

[quote="Viv 113"] wrongly convicted... if 9 out of 10 people who commit serious crimes are killed, good! If there's one wrong, that's just too bad, I guess.. dunno what else to say.

[MK Chris]

Viv, calm down - it's a debate, neither of us, as individuals, have the power to change the current system. Some people, as with any debate, will disagree with you.

I have ever sympathy with the families and friends of murder victims, it's extremely sad, but in the majority of cases, those people are simply unable to make, as Console put it, 'rational' decisions when they are so closely involved. I think if you asked those people, a lot of them, given the choice, would take their time thinking up the worst death they can imagine and exact that punishment on the culprit. That is not a civilised society, in my opinion.

[And if they are wrongly convicted...?

[quote="Viv 113"] wrongly convicted... if 9 out of 10 people who commit serious crimes are killed, good! If there's one wrong, that's just too bad, I guess.. dunno what else to say.

I think that's an utterly deplorable line to take. However, you are entitled to your opinion, and I am mine.

[Vivienne]

Viv, calm down - it's a debate, neither of us, as individuals, have the power to change the current system. Some people, as with any debate, will disagree with you.

I have ever sympathy with the families and friends of murder victims, it's extremely sad, but in the majority of cases, those people are simply unable to make, as Console put it, 'rational' decisions when they are so closely involved. I think if you asked those people, a lot of them, given the choice, would take their time thinking up the worst death they can imagine and exact that punishment on the culprit. That is not a civilised society, in my opinion.

[And if they are wrongly convicted...?

[quote="Viv 113"] wrongly convicted... if 9 out of 10 people who commit serious crimes are killed, good! If there's one wrong, that's just too bad, I guess.. dunno what else to say.

I think that's an utterly deplorable line to take. However, you are entitled to your opinion, and I am mine.

I am calmer now! Sorry, Tophs, Walter (for mis-reading : I'm very exhausted this evening!!) I just saw stuff on crimes, etc., which happen all too often, and felt a bit cross. And, everyone is entitled to opinions.. I do believe tho', that if you ever go throo' any of these things, your opinions may dramatically change, and more than you may believe

[Console]

I do believe tho', that if you ever go throo' any of these things, your opinions may dramatically change, and more than you may believe :-)

Yes, our experience may very well cloud our judgment, but that doesn't mean we can go around exacting revenge on those that have done us wrong.

[Walter Sobchak]

Viv, I think you're anger is clouding your opinion on this, reading through the posts, you have failed to put the quotes in the right place several times.

Now, you may say "So What?" but think on Viv, most horrible crimes that you say should lead to the death penalty are a direct result of anger.

So calm down, click preview then read through it again.

and expect differing opinions, if you ruled a country and expected only your own opinion to be of any importance you'd be a dictator.

which i'm sure your not.

[Vivienne]

why is it clouded tho'.... surely the person/victim would be viewing stuff in an exceptionally clear manner, if anything? And what about the victims who take things in a positive way, helping others solve problems, etc.,.. why are victims automatically viewed as those out seeking revenge?

[Vivienne]

Viv, I think you're anger is clouding your opinion on this, reading through the posts, you have failed to put the quotes in the right place several times.

Now, you may say "So What?" but think on Viv, most horrible crimes that you say should lead to the death penalty are a direct result of anger.

So calm down, click preview then read through it again.

and expect differing opinions, if you ruled a country and expected only your own opinion to be of any importance you'd be a dictator.

which i'm sure your not.

I've no wish to be a dictatator, or argue... and the quotes being in the wrong place may be because I'm tired!! sorry tho'!! Really ... I know you have an opinion too.

[MK Chris]

why is it clouded tho'.... surely the person/victim would be viewing stuff in an exceptionally clear manner, if anything? And what about the victims who take things in a positive way, helping others solve problems, etc.,.. why are victims automatically viewed as those out seeking revenge?

I don't think victims are automatically viewed as people seeking revenge and I agree that some put their experiences to good use, to help others. But, I also think that on this particular matter their opinion would be 'clouded' (good word) by such experiences; experiences that would put them in far too close a position to make such a judgement.

[Console]

why is it clouded tho'.... surely the person/victim would be viewing stuff in an exceptionally clear manner, if anything?

Their view is generally clouded because they've been wronged which can cause anger, resentment, isolation, fear and the want for revenge; any and each of which distract from a logical viewpoint.

And what about the victims who take things in a positive way, helping others solve problems, etc.,.. why are victims automatically viewed as those out seeking revenge?

They're not.

[Vivienne]

OK

[scamp88]

Oh good lord, I wish i hadnt started this thread now!!

And also I think banning Smacking is just nuts! I was smacked as a child and it didnt do me any harm......

Apart from the fact that being exposed to violence has made you think that state sponsored killing is justified.

Bruvva I suppose you do make a vaild point...if i hadnt been smack as a child, i proberly wouldnt have thought it smacking was acceptable in some cases

I dont think that smacking is the reason that i think state killing is justified I see people like Ian Huntly and all these other ppl that have raped abused children murdered getting a free ride in prison i have never been in prison but i bet it is not as hard as it could be.. i dont know why i think it is acceptable if there is without a doubt that they did the crime that they should be given the leathal injection ... but that would only be on serious cases.

And back to smacking, I was only smacked a handful of times, i could tell you some of them i remember...

I pushed a rocking horse down the stairs and smashed the window at the bottom of the stairs....to this day i dont know why i did that i think i wanted to ride it down stairs but i didnt get in the horse fast enough

I Thrown a romote at my sisters head and cut it open.

I stole some penny sweets from Tesco and went to eat them in the toilets

I pretended to smoke one of my mothers Cigs, and she saw me, and for this i found out at a later date it shocked her into quitting forever..

and i cant really remember anymore times. i proberly was smacked more but they never smacked me as a regular form of punishment they used to make me stand in the corner for 5 mins that used to wind me up....

Anyway i proberly started this thread wrong for what i wanted to talk about and i only blame myself, so i will start again.....

Things i would never admit to....

I enjoy reading Love It, Chat ect all those "real life" stories my nan has all the mags
I think Jeremery Kyle is the most annoying person around but i cant help watching his show when i am at home on a weekday.
And on the edith bowman, i dont know why i dislike her i just usually switch off.
And the ONE thing i would never admit to is....my parents are usually right

[MK Chris]

I dont think that smacking is the reason that i think state killing is justified I see people like Ian Huntly and all these other ppl that have raped abused children murdered getting a free ride in prison i have never been in prison but i bet it is not as hard as it could be..

Then surely the issue has to be that prisons are giving prisoners a far more cushy life than they should be and that issue should be corrected.

As far as I am concerned, there is no reason for ending a person's life (as I've stated before) but money (i.e., they are more expensive if they are in prison) is one of the worst reasons.

I do, however, believe that if a prisoner has their mind set on ending their own life, we shouldn't be trying to stop them. If someone is determined enough, they will find a way to do it anyway.

I pushed a rocking horse down the stairs and smashed the window at the bottom of the stairs....to this day i dont know why i did that i think i wanted to ride it down stairs but i didnt get in the horse fast enough

Good job you didn't.

I pretended to smoke one of my mothers Cigs, and she saw me, and for this i found out at a later date it shocked her into quitting forever..

Then some good did come of it.

Things i would never admit to....

I enjoy reading Love It, Chat ect all those "real life" stories my nan has all the mags
I think Jeremery Kyle is the most annoying person around but i cant help watching his show when i am at home on a weekday.
And on the edith bowman, i dont know why i dislike her i just usually switch off.
And the ONE thing i would never admit to is....my parents are usually right

(I took the colour and size out because it annoyed me). Surely these aren't things I would never admit to, as you just have?

[scamp88]

Then surely the issue has to be that prisons are giving prisoners a far more cushy life than they should be and that issue should be corrected.

As far as I am concerned, there is no reason for ending a person's life (as I've stated before) but money (i.e., they are more expensive if they are in prison) is one of the worst reasons.

I do, however, believe that if a prisoner has their mind set on ending their own life, we shouldn't be trying to stop them. If someone is determined enough, they will find a way to do it anyway.

If they make prison more of a place you dont want to be instead of dont mind being (some people really dont mind it) , that i suppose i would be pleased with that, I just look at prison and i have a friend of works in a prison and he tells that while prison isnt Chessington world of adventure but then again it isnt hell, Most people there are with mates, they get three meals a day and some can have TVs in there cells, I just think bloody hell i am struggling to keep myself afloat while these people have all these things done for them and i am paying for it. If prison was as bad as they want to make it out to be, why are re-offenders such a problem. Prison is no deterrent anymore and if they could change that then i would feel justice is being served.
And some people who download child porn, rape ect. Some of the sentances they get are a joke, I belive downloading child porn is as bad as being present while it is happening, They are as much a part of the problem as people who make these things, and more and more people are just getting a smack on the hand!

anyway

Things i would never admit to....

I enjoy reading Love It, Chat ect all those "real life" stories my nan has all the mags
I think Jeremery Kyle is the most annoying person around but i cant help watching his show when i am at home on a weekday.
And on the edith bowman, i dont know why i dislike her i just usually switch off.
And the ONE thing i would never admit to is....my parents are usually right

(I took the colour and size out because it annoyed me). Surely these aren't things I would never admit to, as you just have?

Yeah But i have the Enigma of the intetnet so no one would ever know that it is really me

[Mcqueen_]

If they make prison more of a place you dont want to be instead of dont mind being (some people really dont mind it) , that i suppose i would be pleased with that, I just look at prison and i have a friend of works in a prison and he tells that while prison isnt Chessington world of adventure but then again it isnt hell, Most people there are with mates, they get three meals a day and some can have TVs in there cells, I just think bloody hell i am struggling to keep myself afloat while these people have all these things done for them and i am paying for it. If prison was as bad as they want to make it out to be, why are re-offenders such a problem. Prison is no deterrent anymore and if they could change that then i would feel justice is being served.
And some people who download child porn, rape ect. Some of the sentances they get are a joke, I belive downloading child porn is as bad as being present while it is happening, They are as much a part of the problem as people who make these things, and more and more people are just getting a smack on the hand!

You do realise these people are still humans. You can hardly compare yourself with someone who is in prison just because they get provided with food and get a TV for good behaviour. If there wasn't rewards for good behaviour you'd be paying alot more to keep them under control and re offending would be higher. At least giving them something is an encouragement to change themselves. It's basic human nature people only do things for rewards of some kind.

And I hardly think people 'don't mind' being in prison. Having your rights so restricted is the worst thing that can happen, if you're dead you're not feeling any punishment. If you say to the prisoners you're free to go you aren't going to be left with many who will say, "actually I prefer it here". And that small minority will be people who the state have failed to give them a future better than prison.

[Ballbag]

This thread is like an "intelligent-o-meter". It makes it very easy to gauge the IQ levels in here.

[Vivienne]

I would also like to make one final point: that we, as tax-payers, are paying for the people locked up in prisons, because they cannot conduct themselves in an orderly manner.