[Console]

We're also paying for health-care for people that cause them-selves harm. We also pay for the education of people that either don't want to learn or are incapable or learning. The taxes we pay also go to the unemployed and (as scamp88 put it) the 'chav families' that 'sponge off of the state'. At lot of the taxes we pay may go towards projects that we, personally, don't actually want, but that doesn't mean that the money is wasted or what-ever your point was.

[Vivienne]

The point is clear = I don't wish to pay for clowns.

[Ballbag]

Viv, can I ask where you work please?

[Yudster]

I understand that, but the reality is that we all have to, in a socially aware democracy. The alternative is to exterminate the "clowns" - and I'm not ready to embrace Hitler's policies just yet.

[Zoot]

The point is clear = I don't wish to pay for clowns.

If you were organising a Kids Birthday party, you may have to, they don't work for free...

[Vivienne]

I work in a hospital, where you often see victims of crime, and what the criminals do to them. OK, balls You see the waiting lists for people who can't help quickly, etc., etc.

[Ballbag]

An NHS hospital?

[Vivienne]

Yep, BINGO, Balls. And whilst these criminals are re-habiliated, their victims wait long times for counselling/treatment, and a suitable counsellor as well... which takes time.

[ribbit]

Just wanted to add; Ian Huntley's suicide attempts in prison don't smack of someone having a 'free ride'; more of a very disturbed and haunted person who can't come to terms with his actions. I generally agree that capital punishment and harsh treatment of offenders is ultimately counter-productive, and doesn't reflect well on the society concerned. Our justice system is based on the idea of redemption, after all.

And if you don't agree with that essential principle; well, Iran does a nice line in public executions...

[Vivienne]

I do appreciate people have their points of view, the same as me

Ian Huntley, IMO, should have hanged. Sorry. He deprived a couple of young, lovely ladies of their lives, as well as wrecking the families' lives.

[Yudster]

Just wanted to add; Ian Huntley's suicide attempts in prison don't smack of someone having a 'free ride'; more of a very disturbed and haunted person who can't come to terms with his actions. ...

I think they smack of someone trying to escape punishment, and I'm very glad he has failed. If he is hating prison that much that he wants to kill himself to get out of it, I reckon that makes it the best place for him. Alive.

And whilst my emotional reaction to some people and their crimes is vengeful, thats just emotional, and justice shouldn't be emotion-led. I don't want to live in a society where the justice system is replaced by a revenge system, and I'm not in favour of capital punishment for many reasons. I do understand people's strong responses to these things though.

[ribbit]

I don't know if it's 'hating prison' as much as hating himself, though. It's what's inside a person's head that makes them kill themselves, rather than their surroundings. But yes, he shouldn't be allowed to escape the mess that he made; we still have free will, after all.

[Yudster]

See? Thats the calm and rational version of my emotional response. It makes far more sense.

[foot-loose]

Realistically, the death penalty is never going to be brought back. Aside from the moral aspects, the two main reasons that people support it is because its a deterrent and because it would cut the cost of the prisons. However, I dont think that it acts as much of a detterent in America and its not like there is going to be a huge number of prisoners suddenly being executed so I doubt it will make a big dent in the cost of the prisons.

[MK Chris]

See? Thats the calm and rational version of my emotional response. It makes far more sense.

Part of me does agree with your version, but part of me agrees with Ribbit's (there should be a new debate on whether that username can be taken seriously, as it appears to be onomatopoeic of the noise a frog makes).

Obviously when you are in a position to make important decisions like these, you need your calm, rational head on though.

[MK Chris]

Also, I am interested in Mr Ballbag's opinions on the subject, since he has tactfully shied away from saying outright what they are. I have an idea, I'd like to know if I'm right.

[ribbit]

See? Thats the calm and rational version of my emotional response. It makes far more sense.

Part of me does agree with your version, but part of me agrees with Ribbit's (there should be a new debate on whether that username can be taken seriously, as it appears to be onomatopoeic of the noise a frog makes).

Ooh, you scamp. How is it less serious than any other user name on here?

[MK Chris]

Well.. it's possibly not, but I just think of frogs when I read it.

[foot-loose]

Did Topher just get called a "scamp"? Hahahaha.

You sausage, you!

[Ballbag]

Also, I am interested in Mr Ballbag's opinions on the subject, since he has tactfully shied away from saying outright what they are. I have an idea, I'd like to know if I'm right.

My opinion is thus.... send all the baddies and ne'er-do-wells around to ballbag towers, make them form an orderly queue and I'll give each of the a knuckle sandwich as they pass. I might even rope in Mrs Ballbag to help, she can judo-chop them as they leave.

That would solve the problems in today's Britain.

[Vivienne]

I think justice should be emotionally-lead, yuds.!! That's how things get done! The passionate people are needed. Next year, I'm doing a run and the money raised will be going to a victim-type of organisation, it won't be going to criminals. Let them rot in Hell.

[Ballbag]

criminals. Let them rot in Hell.

This is exactly why justice is not emotionally led Viv.

[ribbit]

I think justice should be emotionally-lead, yuds.!! That's how things get done! The passionate people are needed. Next year, I'm doing a run and the money raised will be going to a victim-type of organisation, it won't be going to criminals. Let them rot in Hell.

To be fair, I haven't seen a 'Let's Give Money To Criminals' charity yet And emotionally-lead justice was the sort of thing that led to women being burned as witches several hundred years ago, so I'm not going to be waving any flags for it myself.

[Yudster]

There's a difference between raising money for charity, which is an activity which can easily involve a lot of emotional involvement (it does with me anyway), and being responsible for spending tax payers money in a major European judicial system. Which shouldn't.

[Vivienne]

criminals. Let them rot in Hell.

This is exactly why justice is not emotionally led Viv.

And it's exactly why our justice system is currently something to laugh at, Balls!!