[Vivienne]

MICROSOFT has unveiled its latest great weapon in the battle to compete with Apple's iPOD. The Zune media player has been revamped!! Just like the iPOD Touch, the Zunes will feature wi-fi, in order that users may download music without having to physically connect to a computer.

"Zune Social" will also be launched, a networking website for users of the machines.

[Console]

Far too little, far too late; I really can't see MS making any head way against the iPod, especially with the extremely dodgy 'squirting' feature (I think the marketing dept. was busy trying to get people buying Vista when that idea was thought up), not to mention it's complete (but not even remotely surprising) lack of compatibility for any OS other that Windows.

[Vivienne]

I love you Console.

[Zoot]

slight change of Topic, but I saw the new iPod Nano's in PC world yesterday for the first time, they look a stunning piece of Kit, very smart. When my Gen 3 iPod finally bites the dust, that may be an option.

(went there looking for a DS for Mrs Zoot, but the new silver one is coming out next week, may wait for that.

[Bruvva]

Hooray, I get to do my ipod rant.....

Quite why people idolise these things, I can't quite grasp. There are MUCH better mp3 players out there like the Creative Zen Vision M, Cowon Audio X5 that have greater flexibility in file formats (the X5 plays practically anything) and, best of all, you're not beholden to the most evil piece of software out there - iTunes. A piece of software that lets you buy music but then places ridiculous restrictions on how and where you can listen to it - it's like being told you can only play your cd on the player in your living room but not your car. It's the kind of stunt that Microsoft pulls and quite rightly gets criticised for so why Apple gets away with it, god only knows.

[foot-loose]

Agreed bruvva - iPods are the work of satan. My sister went and bought one and she has no real knowledge of how to use it, so its down to me to work the damn thing.

I'm thinking about getting a mp3 player - you recommend the Creative Zen Vision M and the Cowon Audio X5. Can anyone else recommend a decent player?

[Console]

best of all, you're not beholden to the most evil piece of software out there - iTunes. A piece of software that lets you buy music but then places ridiculous restrictions on how and where you can listen to it - it's like being told you can only play your cd on the player in your living room but not your car.

Why do you have to use iTunes when you get an iPod; the only thing that I can think of is that you 'have' to use it to transfer files over to the iPod, but I happen to know that the iPod used either FAT32 (for the PC one) or HFS+ (for the Mac version) so you should be able to easily set it up as an external hard-drive (like most other mp3 players) and transfer files normally onto it.

Also, how does it restrict where and how you listen to it? From memory, iTunes allows you to play music directly from the PC, burn the music to a CD and copy it to your iPod, so how exactly does it dictate these terms of use?

Agreed bruvva - iPods are the work of satan. My sister went and bought one and she has no real knowledge of how to use it, so its down to me to work the damn thing.

Isn't that you're sisters fault for not reading the manual? I've been told that iPod is one of the most intuitive MP3 players out there, so if she couldn't just 'figure out' out to use without reading the manual or being shown, then I doubt she could've figured out how to use another MP3 player without such help.

NB: I've never used either iTunes or an iPod, so most of the above is from either technical specs of from people I know that have them; the rest is common sense.

[foot-loose]

Oh, its absolutly her fault yes.

You can use it as an external hard drive but I would imagine if you start screwing about with where you put the music, it would mess up its own filing system. I'm not saying its not possible, but its not very user friendly if you don't do it their way - thats what puts me off.

[Vivienne]

[the rest is common sense.

and that's what you do best (!!).

[Bruvva]

Why do you have to use iTunes when you get an iPod; the only thing that I can think of is that you 'have' to use it to transfer files over to the iPod, but I happen to know that the iPod used either FAT32 (for the PC one) or HFS+ (for the Mac version) so you should be able to easily set it up as an external hard-drive (like most other mp3 players) and transfer files normally onto it.

Also, how does it restrict where and how you listen to it? From memory, iTunes allows you to both play music directly from the PC, burn the music to a CD and copy it to your iPod, so how exactly does it dictate these terms of use?

The general thrust of that part of my rant is that iTunes downloads files in some ridiculous proprietary format (m4a or something) that only ipods seem able to play so say you have an ipod as well as a good mp3 player, you can only transfer it on to the ipod without the bother of burning it to cd and ripping it back to mp3. The point is, you've paid for this music, why the hell should Apple decided what players you can put it on or even what software can play it back on your computer?

[Vivienne]

I'm glad I've created this thread so you can get this off your chest!

[Bruvva]

It's just that Apple annoy me as a company as they're guilty of exactly the same things as microsoft but seem to have a much better PR department.

[Console]

You can use it as an external hard drive but I would imagine if you start screwing about with where you put the music, it would mess up its own filing system. I'm not saying its not possible, but its not very user friendly if you don't do it their way - thats what puts me off.

Most normal MP3 players work in this way, and you'll be using whatever program you usually use to move files around so it won't exactly be that user-unfriendly (a phrase I despise by the way; what exactly does it mean?).

The general thrust of that part of my rant is that iTunes downloads files in some ridiculous proprietary format (m4a or something) that only ipods seem able to play so say you have an ipod as well as a good mp3 player, you can only transfer it on to the ipod without the bother of burning it to cd and ripping it back to mp3. The point is, you've paid for this music, why the hell should Apple decided what players you can put it on or even what software can play it back on your computer?

Ah, so you're point was against DRM, not the iPod, which if memory serves Apple didn't actually want to implement; it was one of the conditions for the record companies allowing the iTunes Music Store to sell the music at all, and I do completely agree, DRM is one of the most ridiculous, pointless things out there. I know it's not exactly a 'nice method' but I think there are programs that you can get to remove the DRM from you iTunes purchases.

It's just that Apple annoy me as a company as they're guilty of exactly the same things as microsoft but seem to have a much better PR department.

You're joking aren't you? Microsoft has the best PR department in the world.

[Vivienne]

so it won't exactly be that user-unfriendly (a phrase I despise by the way; what exactly does it mean?)

er..... able to be easily understood and operated?

[Odd quote problem fixed - BBCode FAQ]

[Console]

so it won't exactly be that user-unfriendly (a phrase I despise by the way; what exactly does it mean?)

er..... able to be easily understood and operated?

Should I take the 'er.....' and the question mark as signs of you guessing?

[Vivienne]

No, I'm questioning your apparent inability to understand something so obvious, Cons.! That's for the quote info., btw, I can never get that right!!

[Bruvva]

Ah, so you're point was against DRM, not the iPod, which if memory serves Apple didn't actually want to implement; it was one of the conditions for the record companies allowing the iTunes Music Store to sell the music at all, and I do completely agree, DRM is one of the most ridiculous, pointless things out there. I know it's not exactly a 'nice method' but I think there are programs that you can get to remove the DRM from you iTunes purchases.

That part of my rant was. Aye, it's so easy to get rid of DRM, you wonder why they bother in the first place. As for Apple not wanting to implement DRM, I don't believe that for a second - they saw a chance to make it necessary to buy an ipod if you wanted to use itunes and jumped at it. They hide behind this public image of being slightly anti-establishment but are as big a bunch of cynical bastards as you're likely to come across.

Microsoft has the best PR department in the world.

Well if that were true, surely everyone would love Microsoft?

[Console]

Aye, it's so easy to get rid of DRM, you wonder why they bother in the first place.

You've just hit the nail on the head with respect to DRM; it will always, no matter what sort of encryption they try to use, be able to be broken. The point of it is that the average user (the ones that wouldn't even think of looking for a program to transcode from MP4 to MP3) won't be bypassing the restrictions. Essentially, there is no point to DRM, it's a safety blanket at best; it's to make the record companies feel better.

They hide behind this public image of being slightly anti-establishment but are as big a bunch of cynical bastards as you're likely to come across.

I'm actually in agreement with you here; especially after the whole iPhone shenanigans. Still, I still consider them better than MS; it'll take a lot for a company to go below MS in my eyes; Fox has pretty much managed it though.

Microsoft has the best PR department in the world.

Well if that were true, surely everyone would love Microsoft?

No, if MS didn't have as good a PR dept. as it does then the company would have probably gone under by now. Why else would users put up with the flood of malware that they get from using Windows? Microsoft's PR and marketing departments are among, if not absolutely, the best in the world.

[Vivienne]

Don't ya just love the superior knowledge, bruvva?

[Console]

No, I'm questioning your apparent inability to understand something so obvious, Cons.! That's for the quote info., btw, I can never get that right!! :-)

I understand the phrase in a broad sense (which is how you described it), but in a more exact sense I'm not sure of it's meaning; user friendly means different things to different people. For some it means something that is easy to learn, and for others it means something that is easy to use (not obvious, but these are quite often mutually exclusive; especially at the extremes). I'm actually of the opinion that it doesn't really mean anything and that it's just another useless buzz word/phrase.

[Vivienne]

Hee hee.... here's another one.......... Console!!

[Walter Sobchak]

Far too little, far too late; I really can't see MS making any head way against the iPod, especially with the extremely dodgy 'squirting' feature (I think the marketing dept. was busy trying to get people buying Vista when that idea was thought up), not to mention it's complete (but not even remotely surprising) lack of compatibility for any OS other that Windows.

You're joking aren't you? Microsoft has the best PR department in the world.

So, good chance of this taking over the marketplace then?

A mate of mine who enjoys his game consoles, at the launch of the X-box had a similar rant, to which I replied "Yeh, but you'll be the first to get one" and he re-instated the fact that he would NEVER have one in his house.....
I called at his house a little while after the launch, and he showed me in... to the kitchen, then I had to look at his 10'x10' back yard, and despite me asking, he wouldn't let me in his front room, until his girlfriend came home, and walked in saying "I suppose you've come round to play on the x-box"
Turned out he'd had it for a week, and for the first 3 days he'd skived off work to play on it!

[gbm]

I'm disappointed in myself that I haven't got in on this topic a bit earlier. I will state now that this is one of those difference of opinions things - some people love Microsoft, some dont, same with Apple, Play stations, Nintendo's, Creative's etc - this does mean that whilst you can put your views accross chances are its not going to make an ounce of difference, I'll happily give my two cents though:

When the original Zune came out ages ago in America I was rather excited, it looked good and stylish, to me a great plus for it was that it isnt an iPod (which I despise) I also liked the fact that it could send music to other Zunes - however Microsoft put a limit on this - the person recieving the music could only listen to the music for either 3 plays or 3 days, whichever came first after this you could have the option to buy the music which in my eyes is good as it promotes bands whilst giving a real taste of their music. I've been waiting for a while for the Zune to come to the UK there were rumours that it wasnt coming and these are probably true now with the release of the Zune 2 - hopefully this one will come to the UK. The Zune 2 is better of course than the Zune with a bigger memory and they also have a couple of varients - size and memory differences. The great thing is that Microsoft have differed from Apple and given out an update to all users (both Zune and Zune 2) to the softwares both on the devices and the computers used to transfer music. This means that now the Zunes can sync with computers over the built in Wi-fi which is on all of the devices, the 3 day limit has gone (but not the 3 play one) Media centre recorded tv can also be sync'd which is a good idea too. I do hope that Any of them come over to the UK soon at an affordable price which is sadly doubtful. The original Zunes are available on ebay at the moment for around £100 - £130.

I have a bit of a hate for Apple which is rather irrational, its built into me and I cant change it though, I think its because they are different which I realise is not a bad thing, I just dont like them and that is unlikly to change.

To the best of my knowledge (only by reading about them, as I dont own them) iPods have got the ability to act as an external hard drive, however this has to be done through itunes partitioning off a part of the hard drive which can act as the external drive meaning that no music on the ipod partition can be accessed through the external drive and none of the external drive music can be accessed by the iPod. There may be a hack to change this though.

I think that DRM is evil, but this looks to be changing as now some music stoes are selling DRMLess music which is good. As for the way that iTunes dictates how purchased music can be used, I believe they put a limit onto the number of times it can be burned to cd, the number of computers that it can be listened to, am I also right in thinking that iPods are the only mp3 player which works with iTunes downloaded music?

I am prepared for the assault on everyone of my comments (meaning that I'll probably have to accept defeat )

[Console]

I have a bit of a hate for Apple which is rather irrational, its built into me and I cant change it though, I think its because they are different which I realise is not a bad thing, I just dont like them and that is unlikly to change.

Many people seem to dislike Apple for no reason what-so-ever; I've never understood this. I'm not saying I'm a particularly big fan of them (because I'm not), but they seem to be in positive points overall.

To the best of my knowledge (only by reading about them, as I dont own them) iPods have got the ability to act as an external hard drive, however this has to be done through itunes partitioning off a part of the hard drive which can act as the external drive meaning that no music on the ipod partition can be accessed through the external drive and none of the external drive music can be accessed by the iPod.

Actually, I happen to know now (since yesterday morning) that you can just plug-in an iPod and use it as a drive; I mounted my friends one on my linux box and it was treated as the harddrive it is.

I think that DRM is evil, but this looks to be changing as now some music stoes are selling DRMLess music which is good. As for the way that iTunes dictates how purchased music can be used, I believe they put a limit onto the number of times it can be burned to cd, the number of computers that it can be listened to

I wouldn't say it's evil (how can an piece of software (other than Windows) be evil after all?), but it is certainly annoying. I've mostly managed to avoid is thus far; CSS is the only real DRM I ever come into contact with, and that's so easily bypassed it may as well not be there. I did used to get tripped up by DRM's older brother, the No-CD things you used to get (and possibly still do get) on computer games, although as a programmer these were pretty trivial to bypass too.

Doesn't iTunes now offer some music DRM free now? I think, or at least press-releases have suggested, that Jobs wants to remove the DRM from as much music as possible, and a few record companies are actually trying it.

am I also right in thinking that iPods are the only mp3 player which works with iTunes downloaded music?

I think that's true of the Windows version if iTunes, but I'm fairly certain that the OSX version can synchronise with numerous different players (I don't know why there's a difference).

[gbm]

Actually, I happen to know now (since yesterday morning) that you can just plug-in an iPod and use it as a drive; I mounted my friends one on my linux box and it was treated as the harddrive it is.

As 'They' say, you learn something new everyday (Its a phrase please dont pull it apart)

Doesn't iTunes now offer some music DRM free now? I think, or at least press-releases have suggested, that Jobs wants to remove the DRM from as much music as possible, and a few record companies are actually trying it.

Indeed they do, (or at least in the US they do as thats where I get most of my news from) it is however more expensive I believe

I'm fairly certain that the OSX version can synchronise with numerous different players (I don't know why there's a difference).

Would you say this is a bit like the prejudice that Microsoft have for XP being the only OS that the Zune will work with?