[S4B]

I have just been to see my children's "Christmas Performance" Now I'm not a devout christian as I had my faith shaken a few years back, however I have just watched about 70-80 kids from the age of 8-11 talk about presents for approximately an hour!

There was no Inn Keeper to allow them access to the Inn, no Shepherd shouting "My sheep just done a poo", no wise man bringing Frankenstein or Mirth, no "Little Donkey", "Oh Little Town of Bethlehem", or "Hark the Herald....".

There were no Angels bringing glad tiddlywinks, no Joseph ranting at Mary because he wanted to ride on the donkey and no Mary saying "I am a virgin - that means we ain't done no kissin yet!"

What has happened to a traditional Christmas?? For some kids this will be their only opportunity this year to discuss the religion of their own country! Is this country a Christian country? Would we go to a muslim country and tell them that they couldn't celebrate Eade in their schools as our kids were Christian and found it offensive? Would we go to Israel and say "Hey guys no more Hanukka as we think you killed the person we believe is the son of God".

More to the point would the religions or political leaders in these countries make this happen? I very much doubt it! I'm sure our American contributors can tell us if this lunacy happens in the States as well or whether it's only us Brits who are so frightened of offending people that we ignore what is our right and the right of our children to celebrate Christmas as a religious festival and not just a chance to spend money and give ridiculous amounts of gifts with no thought or reason as to why we do it!

Discuss.

(Also amusing anecdotes from nativity plays please to take the edge off)

[AndyJ]

I agree, As a christen I am proud of our festivities and I don’t see why we should change our culture to suit other people that don’t celebrate it. They can celebrate there own festivals and you wont hear us complaining.

If people don’t like it then they can bugger off! It like kids nursery rhymes - Baa Baa black sheep is now called Baa Baa Rainbow sheep, so it doesn’t offend anyone.my sister works in a kids nursery and she was telling me the things they have had to change, so it doesn’t offend people.......

[Bruvva]

We need to be careful here saying that "they" won't let us celebrate our festivals. I think you'll be looking a long time if you try to find someone in the muslim/sikh/zoroastrian community who has actually made a complaint about schools celebrating christmas. These "bans" are often enforced by over zealous middle class types with nothing better to do than enforce petty rules and take great delight in being offended on behalf of other people.

Why would other religious groups find the nativity offensive anyway?

Oh, and the "rainbow sheep" thing's an urban myth.

[Bruvva]

Oh, and the "rainbow sheep" thing's an urban myth.

Oh, after a bit of research, it appears to be true.

[S4B]

I never said "they" Bruvva. I agree it's our own native countrymen and women who are creating and enforcing these ridiculous rules! I am completely at a loss to understand it at all!

[Bruvva]

I never said "they" Bruvva. I agree it's our own native countrymen and women who are creating and enforcing these ridiculous rules! I am completely at a loss to understand it at all!

Was referring to AndyJ's post. It annoys the hell out of me and just makes me want to start my "ban religion" movement that I've been planning for years.

[S4B]

I think there already is one isn't there?

[Console]

It annoys the hell out of me and just makes me want to start my "ban religion" movement that I've been planning for years.

Religion doesn't create stupid people, it just takes advantage of them.

[foot-loose]

Religion doesn't create stupid people, it just takes advantage of them.

*Puts on t-shirt*

More and more religion seems to be causing more problems than it solves these days. Maybe that's cos I only ever hear the negative side of things.

I've stated what I think before on this subject and I can't really be arsed getting into it again*. As far as I am concerned, everyone has the right to believe what they want about what they want. Once you start pushing your ideals / beliefs on others - that's where it all goes wrong.

That sounds like a cracking idea until you look at a childs nativity play with kids from a diverse cultural background. I'm not saying it's right what has happened... but I can appreciate that somebody had to make some pretty tough decisions that were likely to upset someone regardless.



*this is the point where I should have stopped typing.

[Sunny So Cal]

S4, unfortunately it has gotten as bad here or perhaps even worse. My favorite was the Lowe's "Holiday" catalog in which they "inadvertently" advertised for "Family Trees" rather than "Christmas Trees." I try to block it out. Particularly when I hear of Christmas parades being cancelled or changed to "Holiday" parades and Nativity scenes being banned because they are on State or Federal property and then there's no separation of church and state. Or stores that don't say "Merry Christmas" anymore but "Season's Greetings." I live in Southern California. I don't have seasons!!! What a stupid saying. I don't ram my religious views down other people's throats and don't expect theirs to be rammed down mine. However, when you get the morons that want to take "In God We Trust" off the American currency and "One Nation Under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance that our school children say every day, then there's a problem. This nation was founded on religious tolerance. It's a beautiful thing. It's written right on our State of Liberty. Pity there isn't room for tolerance of Christianity anymore. Additionally, I think you'll find it is hardly ever people of the Jewish faith that complain. After all, Jesus was Jewish. It is usually atheists or other religions that cause all the ruckus.

[foot-loose]

S4, unfortunately it has gotten as bad here or perhaps even worse. My favorite was the Lowe's "Holiday" catalog in which they "inadvertently" advertised for "Family Trees" rather than "Christmas Trees." I try to block it out. Particularly when I hear of Christmas parades being cancelled or changed to "Holiday" parades and Nativity scenes being banned because they are on State or Federal property and then there's no separation of church and state. Or stores that don't say "Merry Christmas" anymore but "Season's Greetings." I live in Southern California. I don't have seasons!!! What a stupid saying. I don't ram my religious views down other people's throats and don't expect theirs to be rammed down mine. However, when you get the morons that want to take "In God We Trust" off the American currency and "One Nation Under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance that our school children say every day, then there's a problem. This nation was founded on religious tolerance. It's a beautiful thing. It's written right on our State of Liberty. Pity there isn't room for tolerance of Christianity anymore. Additionally, I think you'll find it is hardly ever people of the Jewish faith that complain. After all, Jesus was Jewish. It is usually atheists or other religions that cause all the ruckus.

Has Yudster been teaching you how to write in paragraphs?!

[MK Chris]

Haha.

I consider myself a nearly-atheist (or an agnostic leaning towards atheism (I can't remember if I said this earlier or not)). I don't push my beliefs on others (I don't think.)

[Sunny So Cal]

Succinctly, no

[Boboff]

Hmm

Who cares, they enjoy it.

You can encourage your children by setting up the Nativity Scene at home ( in our house this comes out before the tree) and the children love it.

My 7 year old asked me on Monday whether I believed in God, and how if you believed in that thing that Darwin came up with that I can't think of the name for now.

I explained that people have different opinions about this, and people made up there own minds, and being a nice person, and thinking about others was the best way to behave, regardless of what you believe.

I think in all the Nativity plays I was involved in I was a tree, a sheep, and a Shepard. My kids are doing a performance where each class learns about celebrations in different countries, and then the show is finished with a good old Cornish Carol ( they have this scary band come who re-inact some ancient Cornish Christmas procession) Now this might be seen as non PC, but factually it's been going on in Cornwall allot longer that the frankly over done Nativity play ( see Frank Spencer off of the 1970's)

So S4B consider that it is not non PC, but evidence that things change and you can't expect what you did as a child to be what your children do. Provided they are growing as people and being taught the fundamentals of love, sharing, caring, and forgiveness, surely we should leave it up to the professionals to decide what show they put on. After all these shows are very often extremely time consuming and hard work for the Teachers and Schools to rehearse and stage, and rather than moaning, why not just enjoy them for what they are, and opportunity to bring the classes, school and parents together at a Holiday time to enjoy the time, in the normally staid learning environment.

Oh, and you can always take them to Church, I believe many of them go in for this whole emphasis on Jesus thing.

[Yudster]

Oh, and you can always take them to Church, I believe many of them go in for this whole emphasis on Jesus thing.

You'd be amazed how many don't........

[claradooblue]

My daughter has a variety of imaginary friends whom she's named Eid, Diwali, Christmas, Easter and so on. They all play together in their funny little world, but she is aware that they arn't a proper part of this world. What she really seems to be intersted in is Space. Perhaps i've pushed the "all religion is fantasy" line too far.
That said, the Christmas carol concert was fun this year. At her school they have decided that "Last Christmas" by Wham is the song to sing.
And why not.

[MK Chris]

What she really seems to be intersted in is Space.

I loved Female of the Species.

In all seriousness though, that interests me too.

[Nicola_Red]

I think people are just so scared of offending/upsetting others. I do understand that to a point, but stuff like the teddy bear incident only fuels that fire. I know that happened in another country, but it still impacts on people's thinking.

Did we all take part in nativities as kids? Do we think it affected our views or feelings on Christianity or any other religion at all? I don't think mine did. I was brought up Christian and I still am, but I doubt the nativity had anything to do with it.

[Andy B]

I was gonna do another rant about my revolution and me being supreme leader causing all religeon to be uneccsesary. But I shant. I'm not a massive fan of organised religeono either, it's a bit too much like organised crime except one's got a better PR department.

I beleive it's a method used by those in power to subjugate those below them and keep them in their station by promising a fantastical afterlife where all are equal and has no worries. And on that basis is why I want to start my own revolution with me as spiritual head and world leader. Get rid of all the religeons, politics, boundaries and give me a huge army to supress any uprisings and that'd be the end of the worlds troubles.

Revolution, big palace, fascist junta, secret police, done!

[Nicola_Red]

I beleive it's a method used by those in power to subjugate those below them and keep them in their station by promising a fantastical afterlife where all are equal and has no worries.

But if people do believe in an afterlife, does that harm anyone else? apart from people like suicide bombers obviously. I can't see how believing that you go to another place after you die is a problem.

[Console]

I beleive it's a method used by those in power to subjugate those below them and keep them in their station by promising a fantastical afterlife where all are equal and has no worries.

But if people do believe in an afterlife, does that harm anyone else? apart from people like suicide bombers obviously. I can't see how believing that you go to another place after you die is a problem.

Believing in an afterlife (generally) has no down side; it's the people that take advantage of that belief that are the real problem. The people that say you'll go to hell if you don't do exactly as they say.

[Vivienne]

It is up to each individual. If you have a strong enough personality, then you won't be taken advantage of. You can believe in something more to this life, without people talking you into anything and everything.

[Console]

Exactly, it isn't the belief (or the religion) itself that is dangerous, it is the people who try to profit from it by abusing other believer's naivety and/or gullibility.

[Vivienne]

Tosh! A person can believe there is more to this life without being abused by others. What is "dangerous" is the people who have no belief in anything (as well as being very sad).

[Bruvva]

Tosh! A person can believe there is more to this life without being abused by others. What is "dangerous" is the people who have no belief in anything (as well as being very sad).

So, as an atheist I'm dangerous and sad? How so, exactly?