[Console]

No. Jesus doesn't bring presents, Santa does.

No, 'Santa' doesn't bring presents; that's a part of the lie.

When you actually have kids i bet you 10 pound your view will change and they will be listening to you telling stories about magical santa on christmas eve

Trust me, my view won't have changed. Also, are their famous stories about 'Santa' or do you mean sort of made-up-on-the-spot stories? Not that it really matters.

[foot-loose]

Why do all kids need to believe in something magical at Christmas? Isn't the virgin-birth of our lord and saviour, Jesus Christ, enough magic and lies for that time of year?

Oh stop being awkward. You know fine well what it is we mean.

As for your view not changing when you have kids, yours might not, but I bet the mother will kick you up and down the kitchen till you promise not to let on. Especially if the mother is Viv.

[catherine]

Yes you will change your views because when your children hear off of other children about Santa, then come running to you with big, bright, excited eyes asking if he is real you wouldn't have the heart to tell them no.

As for stories, the elves work all year building toys, he lives in the North Pole, how Rudolph got picked on and then picked to be head man of the sleigh, not to mention the naughty and nice lists. If you don't know any stories about Santa you had a shit childhood.

[Console]

Why do all kids need to believe in something magical at Christmas? Isn't the virgin-birth of our lord and saviour, Jesus Christ, enough magic and lies for that time of year?

Oh stop being awkward. You know fine well what it is we mean.

Actually, I'm not sure I do. Do you know what you mean? I ask because it sounds like that you mean kids should be lied to, that they should believe that life is made of magic. This seems absurd to me, the truth is far more fantastic than the fiction; harder to understand, yes, but far greater.

[catherine]

Just because you wouldn't believe in anything even if it came from out of space and hit you on the head, don't take it away from innocent children.

[Andy B]

Kids need to learn to believe the small lies when they are little so they can believe in the big lies when they are adults.

[Console]

Yes you will change your views because when your children hear off of other children about Santa, then come running to you with big, bright, excited eyes asking if he is real you wouldn't have the heart to tell them no.

Actually, I wouldn't have the heart to lie to them. I don't really see the point of disillusioning them. What exactly is the benefit?

As for stories, the elves work all year building toys, he lives in the North Pole, how Rudolph got picked on and then picked to be head man of the sleigh, not to mention the naughty and nice lists. If you don't know any stories about Santa you had a * childhood.

That's not really stories though, is it, that's pretty much it.

Just because you wouldn't believe in anything even if it came from out of space and hit you on the head, don't take it away from innocent children.

Actually, if was able to come outer space and hit me on the head, then I'm fairly certain I would believe it. The difference being, of course, that it really would have come from outer space and hit me on the head as opposed to being fictional and not existing.

Kids need to learn to believe the small lies when they are little so they can believe in the big lies when they are adults.

Nicely put, although that hasn't really been working wonders, has it?

[catherine]

Well we shall agree to disagree then because kids have massive imaginations and sometimes that is the only thing that keeps them happy. What would you do if your child developed an imaginary friend?

[Console]

It's a situation I had never really thought about before, so I must be honest and say that I have no idea what I would do. What would you do?

[MK Chris]

So if your little child asked you how babies are made, what would you tell them? Would you explain how people have sex, even though the child was, say, only four?

Father Christmas isn't what I would call a lie, it's folklore and it teaches children how good it is to give to others. I'm sure there are other ways to do this, but Father Christmas is also a traditional story.

I agree with Boboff, if you had kids who knew there was no such thing as Father Christmas, I wouldn't want my kids going anywhere near yours, at least not while they still believed in him. Of course they will find out eventually, but as others have said, it's part of the magic for kids.

[Nicola_Red]

Hmm. I suspect it doesn't do kids any harm to believe in Santa. Do we think it did any of us harm? My flatmate complains that his dad told him Santa wasn't real when he was only five or six. He thinks he should have been allowed to believe for longer.

On the other hand, I understand the argument that kids need to understand the realities of the world and that perpetuating lies probably isn't a good idea. So I'm not sure. Once again, I'm glad i'll never have to deal with decisions like this.

[catherine]

If having one made them happy and wasn't harming anyone then i would play along.

But are you not saying that whatever thing that isn't real life in the world you would tell your children? So when they wanted to pretend to be superheroes you would tell them they don't exist and when the family pet died you wouldn't say it is now in heaven and in a better place, but instead tell them how the maggots are going to eat it.

[Nicola_Red]

when the family pet died you wouldn't say it is now in heaven and in a better place, but instead tell them how the maggots are going to eat it.

Plenty of adults believe that when you die, you go to a better place. That's not the sole preserve of children.

[Console]

No, just gullible people.

So if your little child asked you how babies are made, what would you tell them? Would you explain how people have sex, even though the child was, say, only four?

I can't see why not? Can you think of a reason not to? Obviously you may have to paint-it-up a bit so they can understand it, but that's not so much lying as it is 'dumbing down'.

Father Christmas isn't what I would call a lie, it's folklore and it teaches children how good it is to give to others. I'm sure there are other ways to do this, but Father Christmas is also a traditional story.

I have nothing against the story, the are some lessons that should only be taught through stories; but I do consider telling a story with the intention of making them believe that what you're telling them is literally true, lying; it's sounds pretty much like the definition to me.

But are you not saying that whatever thing that isn't real life in the world you would tell your children?

Pretty much, yes.

So when they wanted to pretend to be superheroes you would tell them they don't exist

The key word there is pretend, they know it isn't real; that's an important difference.

and when the family pet died you wouldn't say it is now in heaven and in a better place, but instead tell them how the maggots are going to eat it.

I may not use the word maggots (or worms), but I certainly wouldn't say the dog is 'in heaven'. Death is an essential part of life, and not really something to be frightened off, so why sugar-coat it as though it's something to be terrified of?

[Nicola_Red]

No, just gullible people.

If you believe people are gullible that's fair enough. You're entitled to your belief just as they are to theirs.

[catherine]

The key word there is pretend, they know it isn't real; that's an important difference.

No i said pretend because i know now they don't exist but i didn't at the age of 4 or 5. Did you?

[Console]

I'm fairly certain I did not think they were real; although it's a little difficult to remember clearly my exact thoughts of such a long time ago.

[foot-loose]

Do you know what you mean? I ask because it sounds like that you mean kids should be lied to, that they should believe that life is made of magic. This seems absurd to me, the truth is far more fantastic than the fiction; harder to understand, yes, but far greater.

Yes I know what you mean, and normally in these sort of arguments I agree with you, but I don't think I can this time. There is something special / meaningful / magic about the festive time of year - I think that the reason that it is a special time of year is because we can relate back to how we felt as kids - something that not many of us get the chance to do often. Christmas is all about children - it is more than just getting given presents from your parents and friends - that's what birthdays are for. Christmas has the added element of magic and I don't think it's right to take that away from them.

No I don't think you should fill your childs head with fairy tales and make them believe that life is full of magic, but I don't think it does any harm to allow them to use their imagination - it's what children do best! Making their world full of facts and figures... I see that as a scary thought. Let them have their fun till they realise how pish the whole thing really is!

[catherine]

Well said.

[Andy B]

Christmas still is a magical time for me, I get bucket loads of presents and it's magical how I never wake up with a hangover no matter how much I drink in the days leading up to it, especially Christmas eve.

Seriously I couldn't get drunk no matter how hard I tried this Christmas.

[foot-loose]

I'm not sure a lack of a hangover constitutes magic. Good painkillers maybe, but not magic.

[Console]

Christmas has the added element of magic and I don't think it's right to take that away from them.

I'm sure you meant 'not give that to' as opposed to 'take that away from', but I'll overlook that as the quote brings up a parallel point, which is that the exact same thing good be said for religion. Religion has the added element of magic, and I think it perfectly reasonable not to inflict that upon children. Telling them stories about religion is one thing, telling them so they will believe that God created the universe and everything in it in six days, and that two of every animal could fit on an ark, seems absurd to me.

I don't think it does any harm to allow them to use their imagination - it's what children do best!

I have nothing against the stories, per-se, as long as it's clear that they're not real and just stories. You're right, one of the best things about being a child is your imagination, which is why stories can be so effective with children, I just think that there should be an obvious line between what is imaginary and what isn't

[Andy B]

I'm not sure a lack of a hangover constitutes magic. Good painkillers maybe, but not magic.

Nope, no painkillers, no pint of water before bed. I drank shed loads and couldn't even get drunk.

I'm normally a complete lightweight and can't handle more than 4 beers but every time my birthday comes around I can drink like a fish and not only do I not get drunk but I suffer no hangover the next day either. It's the magic of christmas that does it!

[foot-loose]

Christmas has the added element of magic and I don't think it's right to take that away from them.

I'm sure you meant 'not give that to' as opposed to 'take that away from', but I'll overlook that as the quote brings up a parallel point, which is that the exact same thing good be said for religion. Religion has the added element of magic, and I think it perfectly reasonable not to inflict that upon children. Telling them stories about religion is one thing, telling them so they will believe that God created the universe and everything in it in six days, and that two of every animal could fit on an ark, seems absurd to me.

I'm not sure I follow what you mean. I meant that as far as I am concerned Christmas had and, to a degree, still has an element of magic. I see no problem with kids experiencing that.

I can't really see how you are comparing the idea of Santa to a religion? My idea of a religion is one that answers some of lifes great questions - where do we come from? What happens when we die? All Santa does is ride about in a sleigh with some reindeer and presents - he isn't asking for you to worship him. All he has is a list. That he checks twice.

[MK Chris]

normally in these sort of arguments I agree with you, but I don't think I can this time.

This sums up my opinion of Console's point of view too.