[catherine]

Santa is meant to be St Nicholas.

[Andy B]

Actually I was reading a book I got given for xmas/birthday which said that logicaly there's no proof that God is all benevolent and could in fact be totally evil. There's as much justification for an all good God that allows some evil to exist in the world as there is for an all evil God that allows some good to exist all due to free will and all.

Made me think, it'd be a bugger if the christians were wrong and the Satanists all got to go to heaven instead eh?

[Vivienne]

it's a lot like religion in that aspect.

HA! You just had to get that in, didn't you, Console.

[MK Chris]

I'm pretty sure I may have posted this before, but it just got relevant again:
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFGrQMD6Uqc][/youtube]

[Console]

Religion has the added element of magic, and I think it perfectly reasonable not to inflict that upon children. Telling them stories about religion is one thing, telling them so they will believe that God created the universe and everything in it in six days, and that two of every animal could fit on an ark, seems absurd to me.

I'm not sure I follow what you mean.

What I mean is that I see nothing wrong with telling stories; they can sometimes be the best/safest way of imparting information on a person, especially a young person. However, I see a big difference between telling stories and making other people believe what you're saying is true, especially when you know it's not.

I meant that as far as I am concerned Christmas had and, to a degree, still has an element of magic. I see no problem with kids experiencing that.

You know (I assume) that Father Christmas/Santa Clause isn't real and yet can still 'feel' some of the 'magic', so why do kids need to be lied to, to be made to believe they are true to also experience this 'magic'?

I can't really see how you are comparing the idea of Santa to a religion?

They're both about fictional entities that were created to control others under the guise of offering something good, sounds like a fair comparison to me.

All Santa does is ride about in a sleigh with some reindeer and presents

On what is apparently Jesus' birthday.

he isn't asking for you to worship him.

Neither is God, mostly because he doesn't exist.

All he has is a list. That he checks twice.

Doesn't St. Peter also have a list?

NB: The last three were little but argumentative, but I found it amusing to make the comparison.

Actually I was reading a book I got given for xmas/birthday which said that logicaly there's no proof that God is all benevolent and could in fact be totally evil. There's as much justification for an all good God that allows some evil to exist in the world as there is for an all evil God that allows some good to exist all due to free will and all.

Isn't there also as much justification for God being made out of potato, speaking with a Welsh accent, wearing high-heels and reading Lord of the Rings over and over again?

[Vivienne]

God does exist. He's the reason you're here.

And the Father Xmas "thing" is cool, I think, for young kids. That's what being young is all about : a magical, innocent time.

[Vivienne]

Console just doesn't have a clue, Charla. He misses the point to life. Goes around enjoying this and that, without appreciating the preciousness or the value of life. He once told me in a pm he thought there was nothing to life. It's very sad.

[Console]

why would you enforce your belief that your children shouldn't be allowed to believe in Santa?

How is not telling them about 'Santa' forcing them not to believe in him? If he existed then any kids I may have would be convinced by what they see around them, not because I've lied to them. Also, I never said they shouldn't believe, just that they shouldn't be deliberately lied to.

even at a young age we can decide what we believe in so if your children want to believe in it, then let them because whats the harm in believing in something that ultimately means they'll enjoy the celebration more?

Actually, I don't think theirs a choice in belief, I think that's a self-delusion, but, as I said above, there's a difference between someone believe something that is wrong and making someone believe something that is wrong when you know it's wrong.

[foot-loose]

You know (I assume) that Father Christmas/Santa Clause isn't real and yet can still 'feel' some of the 'magic', so why do kids need to be lied to, to be made to believe they are true to also experience this 'magic'?

Cos I am pretty sure that I wouldnt feel the same way if I hadn't believed the story in the first place.

They're both about fictional entities that were created to control others under the guise of offering something good, sounds like a fair comparison to me.

I've got a credit card that offers fictional money under the guise of offering me something good. It controls me.

Santa is not a religion.

On what is apparently Jesus' birthday.

So your point would make more sense if Santa made his guest appearence in the middle of June?

Neither is God, mostly because he doesn't exist.

I didn't mention God - we were talking about religion which normally tells you how to live your life and in most cases to worship one or more deities. Whither or not God exists has little to do with this.

The last three were little but argumentative, but I found it amusing to make the comparison.

Oh, i'm well aware this sorta discussion tickles you, but there are comparisons drawn between the story of Jesus and the Bible everywhere. Basically, I think you are being difficult.

He once told me in a pm he thought there was nothing to life.

To a large extent, I agree with him - as much as I would love to tell you the point of life, it is beyond me. People are so obsessed with what they are doing right now that they don't stop and ask what the point of it all is - at the end of the day, yer dead.

You can't say he doesn't have a clue, you can say that you don't agree with him, you can even feel sorry for him, but it's up to him. At the same time, I don't think it's right that someone would tell you that God doesn't exist and your beliefs are wrong. I have no problem with religion at all until beliefs start getting imposed on other peoples lives.

Can we go back to Santa now?

[Vivienne]

Well written, foots! But one thing, people should be asking what the point is, largely because there is something else after this. I think your spirit/soul goes on somewhere else. This isn't the end. There's something more, foots!

[Andy B]

Nah, random fluctuations of electro chemical signals in the brain. No brain = no life. When you're dead you're dead. That's why I live my life to the fullest society will let me every day.

[foot-loose]

Well written, foots! But one thing, people should be asking what the point is, largely because there is something else after this. I think your spirit/soul goes on somewhere else. This isn't the end. There's something more, foots!

As long as you convey that it is your opinion - that's cool. But for either party to say "you're wrong, I am right" - that doesn't sit well with me. The short answer is that none of us really knows - we can all have our beliefs, but none of us knows.

[Console]

You know (I assume) that Father Christmas/Santa Clause isn't real and yet can still 'feel' some of the 'magic', so why do kids need to be lied to, to be made to believe they are true to also experience this 'magic'?

Cos I am pretty sure that I wouldnt feel the same way if I hadn't believed the story in the first place.

Unfortunately though, you'll never know if it would have made a difference, or at least an important difference, as you weren't given that opportunity.

They're both about fictional entities that were created to control others under the guise of offering something good, sounds like a fair comparison to me.

I've got a credit card that offers fictional money under the guise of offering me something good. It controls me.

The money isn't fictional, it's theoretical; it's a large enough difference to invalidate your point. Of course, I also think Credit Cards are bad and that people shouldn't spend their money until they actually have it.

Santa is not a religion.

No, but certain aspects of it are comparable to a religion.

On what is apparently Jesus' birthday.

So your point would make more sense if Santa made his guest appearence in the middle of June?

No, I don't think so.

Can we go back to Santa now?

By all means, let us get back to the fat, old man that spies on kiddies while they're sleeping.

[Vivienne]

Ok, you're right, foots! I guess really neither party really can know for sure - until we are ultimately dead.

[foot-loose]

By all means, let us get back to the fat, old man that spies on kiddies while they're sleeping.

This is one of many problems with the world. Another analogy could be that he is a jolly old man who gives out presents to kiddies while they are sleeping.

I think we have both made our point well enough and I need to go out. Keep on arguing with Viv if you wish.

[Vivienne]

It's ok.. it's been fixed in a pm, and I still think he's the coolest thing since toast.

[MK Chris]

I still think he's the coolest thing since toast.

...but toast is usually warm or hot.

[Andy B]

Exactly live in the now. There was a great quote I saw in a film not to long ago that said somethng like...

either you live in the present and must therefore have no regard for what has gone or what will be or you can live you life obsessing about the past and worrying about the future...

soemthing like that anyway. I'd rather live in the now. You can worry about the future all you want but you could get hit by a bus tomorrow so hang the sense of it and just have fun.

[Vivienne]

O, tophs!! And that's an awful avatar.

[MK Chris]

And that's an awful avatar.

It's been my avatar for at least a couple of weeks, if not more.

[Sunny So Cal]

You know (I assume) that Father Christmas/Santa Clause isn't real and yet can still 'feel' some of the 'magic', so why do kids need to be lied to, to be made to believe they are true to also experience this 'magic'?

Console, I just want to give you a hug. It's all so sad. Like you didn't have the magic. Footsy has summed it all up perfectly. Even if we no longer believe, it is our past belief which gives us the joy when Christmas rolls around. It is the memories and passing down the traditions to our children that is the delight. It is watching them talk with their friends about Santa and his reindeer that is heartwarming. It isn't about threats or bribes or coercion. My children don't care so much what he'll bring, but that he would come.

The saddest part of all is your little slip-up above that says "Santa Clause" -- you even spelled his name wrong

[S4B]

It's all irrelevant anyway, Console is unlikely to reproduce and if he did then his partner would probably be the anti Console so she wouldn't let him be so mean to their kids.

[MK Chris]

Why is he unlikely to reproduce?

[Sunny So Cal]

I don't like to contemplate the "reproduction" process of Console. It sounds so clinical. Like we're discussing bacterium multiplying in a petri dish and not a man. I'm sure he will marry and have children and as previously suggested, he will either change his tune on his own or with some very strong spousal suggestions.

[S4B]

Why is he unlikely to reproduce?

Obviously because unless he gets out sometime soon he is unlikely ever to come into contact with any women face to face at all!