[foot-loose]

I saw this programme last night on BBC 3 and found the whole thing pretty interesting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/programme ... ndex.shtml

It basically shows how animals are treated before they are used for food, it shows the animal being killed and then how it is prepared before it starts to look like something you see in the shops. I'll be honest, it's not the easiest thing to watch - last night it was calves being slaughtered - but I kinda feel that it is important for people to know where the food they eat comes from. I tend to believe that we are meant to eat animals and I have no problem in doing so, but they should be treated well and have a good life.

I was a bit concerned when I first saw it that it was going to be sensationalist viewing and they were only after the viewers. However, the aim of the programme appeared to set out to show why people think they shouldn't eat veal and some reasons as to why their opinion might be uninformed.

The show is on again tonight (10.30pm BBC 3) where they will be showing how lambs are treated. I say again - they hold nothing back with the slaughtering so if you watch it, don't come crying to me. Plus, I don't believe that an argument of "aww look at the cute wee lambs .... YOU CHOPPED ITS HEAD OFF!! RIGHT, I'm never eating meat again!" is a valid one. If you have eaten meat all your life, I don't think you should stop just because you claim you didn't know what happened to the animals.

Also, I see that Jamie Oliver is planning on electrocuting some chickens on Friday night on CH4 to demonstrate how battery chickens are so poorly treated, so that will probably be quite interesting as well.

[Yudster]

Preaching to the converted with me Footy!

[kendra k]

i love shock tactics! seriously people, how can you ignore where your food comes from?

i wish more meat eaters were like yudster.

[Nicola_Red]

Totally agreed kendra. Nothing worse than head-in-the-sand meat eaters.

[Andy B]

i love shock tactics! seriously people, how can you ignore where your food comes from?

i wish more meat eaters were like yudster.

In all seriousness and as I said in another thread, I love the taste of meat, I live in the city so don't exactly get to go to my local farm to choose my animal and I wouldn't want to get attatched to it.

As long as it's not past it's sell by date, I couldn't care less where it came from or what kind of life it had. I don't WANT to think about the animals past, just it's future which should preferably involve gravy and some steamed veg.

If anything I think i'd feel more guilty about taking an animal that had had a lovely happy life and eating it. Much better to kill the animal that's had a miserable life and put it out of it's misery so it can mae someone else happy.

[Yudster]

I kind of hope the various chicken-related programmes that are broadcasting here at the moment will have an impact, because I don't believe that people aren't aware that there is a lot wrong with intensive farming practices, but I do think its very easy to be unaware of the extent of the awfulness. This is a good time for it to be happening, a lot of farmers are becoming much more receptive to the idea of sustainability (in arable production as well as meat) and low-intensity farming than they have ever been before - a bit more of a public demand might see a significant shift in the way things are done.

I still wish I had a smallholding and could raise my own meat though. I may lobby for a couple of hens next year, the garden's just about big enough, and goodness knows its not doing anything else, like be decorative or anything.

[Nicola_Red]

Much better to kill the animal that's had a miserable life and put it out of it's misery so it can mae someone else happy.

But the animal has had a miserable life because it's been reared solely for meat, so that doesn't make any sense.

[Andy B]

It's still had a miserable life though hasn't it....given a choice I'd rather eat an animal that had a crappy life than one that was happily running around in the fields, going whereever it wanted, eating what it wanted when it wanted., not a care in the world. Then one day - BAM - and you're on my plate. That's just not kind.

[MK Chris]

Yeah, but the point is that if you insist on eating meat that has been killed humanely and treated properly, then you are actively protesting against factory farming and if enough people did that, they wouldn't do it.

[Nicola_Red]

i do see what you mean. I've been veggie for 16yrs so all these issues and stuff like "freedom food" were not a part of general knowledge and discussion back when I ate meat, so i've never really had to consider them.

[Yudster]

Whichever way you are looking at it, the animal is going to end up eaten. I can't see any level on which causing suffering to it whilst it's alive is reasonable. Happy and dead, or miserable, in constant pain and full of disease (which might very well get passed on to you when you eat it) and dead? If the dead part was completely inevitable, I know which I'd prefer.

[Sunny So Cal]

This discussion is making me slightly queasy. Yuds, as Kendra said, more meat eaters should be like you.

[Andy B]

Yeah, but the point is that if you insist on eating meat that has been killed humanely and treated properly, then you are actively protesting against factory farming and if enough people did that, they wouldn't do it.

But as I've already said I don't WANT to think about where my food has been. I'd rather not think of it as an animal with a face and a smile and feelings at all, I'd rather think of it as a bacon sandwich.

I do love the taset of meat (and soya's just no substitute) but I'm a sensitive sort really and so I don't want to associate the thing on my plate with being an animal at all.

I know it was an animal but at the same time I also think of it as having just popped into existence in the supermarket. I'm great at doublethink me!

[natfatbat]

Whichever way you are looking at it, the animal is going to end up eaten. I can't see any level on which causing suffering to it whilst it's alive is reasonable. Happy and dead, or miserable, in constant pain and full of disease (which might very well get passed on to you when you eat it) and dead? If the dead part was completely inevitable, I know which I'd prefer.

I completely agree with Yuds on this. I'm lucky enough to live in a rural area, with plenty of farms and local butchers selling locally reared/home slaughtered meat. Alot of our restaurants and even local pubs only use locally produced/free range meat and cheeses (sorry Yuds). The food tastes so much nicer, the meat is better quality and leaner. Who cares if it costs more, if the animal has had 12 happy months then in my book thats better all round.

[kendra k]

andy b, that's some great double think.

i'm pretty excited about a proposed ballot initiative in california to increase the crate sizes in veal farming. every little bit helps.

[Sunny So Cal]

Me, too, Kendra! Farm Sanctuary member?

[MK Chris]

Who cares if it costs more, if the animal has had 12 happy months then in my book thats better all round.

But it quite often isn't more expensive, is it? Certainly round here, the farmers markets seem to at least match the supermarkets on price and it's a bit of a fallacy that they're more expensive.

[Sunny So Cal]

Organic meats are more expensive here. As is organic produce.

[Yudster]

Who cares if it costs more, if the animal has had 12 happy months then in my book thats better all round.

But it quite often isn't more expensive, is it? Certainly round here, the farmers markets seem to at least match the supermarkets on price and it's a bit of a fallacy that they're more expensive.

Its definitely getting better - but the more demand is raised, the better it will be for price as well. Farmers markets are brilliant.

[natfatbat]

Who cares if it costs more, if the animal has had 12 happy months then in my book thats better all round.

But it quite often isn't more expensive, is it? Certainly round here, the farmers markets seem to at least match the supermarkets on price and it's a bit of a fallacy that they're more expensive.

sorry Tophs,

I meant whilst eating out, which to a certain extent is when you have the least control over what you eat. But to be honest, in the midlands where I am, everything seems to be a bit cheaper. If your talking supermarkets however, organic/freerange products generally are more expensive. We don't have many farmers markets round here so I couldnt really comment.

[foot-loose]

It's still had a miserable life though hasn't it....given a choice I'd rather eat an animal that had a crappy life than one that was happily running around in the fields, going whereever it wanted, eating what it wanted when it wanted., not a care in the world. Then one day - BAM - and you're on my plate. That's just not kind.

Your thinking about this sorta back to front. If everyone stopped eating the crappy life animals then there would be a much higher demand for happy animals (free range) - thereby solving the problem of the shit conditions battery animals have to endure. I can see what you mean, but I dont think the way you are thinking about this is right.

I suppose you don't need to do a lot to make the difference though - buy free range eggs / milk / meat etc would do it. You don't NEED to have a personal relationship with the actual animal (whatever Yudster may tell you!).

I'd rather not think of it as an animal with a face and a smile and feelings at all, I'd rather think of it as a bacon sandwich.

I do love the taset of meat (and soya's just no substitute) but I'm a sensitive sort really and so I don't want to associate the thing on my plate with being an animal at all.

I know it was an animal but at the same time I also think of it as having just popped into existence in the supermarket. I'm great at doublethink me!

Again, I can totally appreciate your point of view - I have worked in a butchers and was brought up around farms etc so I suppose I might be a bit more used to the whole thing. That said, ignorance is not an excuse.

i'm pretty excited about a proposed ballot initiative in california to increase the crate sizes in veal farming. every little bit helps.

From what I could see from the programme last night, the quality of lives that the calves have in the UK is much better than it used to be and much better than Europe. There is apparently a thinking that calves are chained down so that they dont build up any muscle and are only fed on supplements - this isnt the case in the UK any more, some sorta legistlation change.

Organic meats are more expensive here. As is organic produce.

Organic is different again - thats to do with the farming methods and what chemicals are used. I think the animals have pretty much the same sorta life on an organic farm as they do on a free range one.

I meant whilst eating out, which to a certain extent is when you have the least control over what you eat. But to be honest, in the midlands where I am, everything seems to be a bit cheaper. If your talking supermarkets however, organic/freerange products generally are more expensive. We don't have many farmers markets round here so I couldnt really comment.

I imagine that free range will be more expensive, but I doubt it is going to be that much. Id rather spend an extra 20p on my eggs and not buy a packet of chewing gum if it means that the hen hasnt been tortured for its short life. Basically, I don't think its going to be so much different in price that it will dramatically affect the total bill.

[natfatbat]

Whichever way you are looking at it, the animal is going to end up eaten. I can't see any level on which causing suffering to it whilst it's alive is reasonable. Happy and dead, or miserable, in constant pain and full of disease (which might very well get passed on to you when you eat it) and dead? If the dead part was completely inevitable, I know which I'd prefer.

I completely agree with Yuds on this. I'm lucky enough to live in a rural area, with plenty of farms and local butchers selling locally reared/home slaughtered meat. Alot of our restaurants and even local pubs only use locally produced/free range meat and cheeses (sorry Yuds). The food tastes so much nicer, the meat is better quality and leaner. Who cares if it costs more, if the animal has had 12 happy months then in my book thats better all round.

I meant whilst eating out, which to a certain extent is when you have the least control over what you eat. But to be honest, in the midlands where I am, everything seems to be a bit cheaper. If your talking supermarkets however, organic/freerange products generally are more expensive. We don't have many farmers markets round here so I couldnt really comment.

I imagine that free range will be more expensive, but I doubt it is going to be that much. Id rather spend an extra 20p on my eggs and not buy a packet of chewing gum if it means that the hen hasnt been tortured for its short life. Basically, I don't think its going to be so much different in price that it will dramatically affect the total bill.[/quote]

Exactly footy, thats what I was saying here

[natfatbat]

Sorry Foots,

I'm really new and can't get the hang of the quoting thing! I stated your case in the quote about restaurants and local pubs!

[foot-loose]

No worries.

Read this: http://www.phpbb.com/community/faq.php?mode=bbcode#f20

[natfatbat]

cheers for that!!