[Zoot]

It's an odd one, It may sound hypocritical but I eat and enjoy meat, although If it came down to me actually killing an animal to eat, then i'd find it almost impossible.

[catherine]

Me too zoot. I couldn't stand in a slaughter house and watch them kill an animal and i couldn't kill one myself but i will happily eat most meats even rare ones.

[Yudster]

It's an odd one, It may sound hypocritical but I eat and enjoy meat, although If it came down to me actually killing an animal to eat, then i'd find it almost impossible.

Me too - I don't think thats an issue at all. If I absolutely had to kill it in order to survive then I would - but as it is, there are people paid to do it for me, so that's great.

The other thing to remember about definitions of "organic" - all the stuff about food etc is only part of it. Unless the farm or property the animal or produce comes from is registered by The Soil Association as organic, it can't be labelled as such. In order to qualify, landowners need to demonstrate that their land has been free of non-permitted chemicals for a period of time (which I think is years rather than months) before they are allowed to claim to be organic producers. I think this is bonkers. I get my eggs and chickens from a place which uses no chemicals ("organic" standards actually allow the use of some), and only feeds organic feed - but they aren't allowed to say they are organic. There are a lot of producers in this category, so shop around.

[Sunny So Cal]

We were talking about this yesterday, my aunt is a veggie and she said the programme that turned her veggie was one that showed a load of lambs all queuing up in a line to be killed and from about eight lambs behind the one being slaughtered, they could see what was going on and tried to turn round and go back, but obviously there wasn't enough room. I can imagine that would be quite harrowing to watch.

That story is reminding me of several I've read in newspapers or the Farm Sanctuary newsletter. Animals in (New York City) slaughterhouses can smell or sense the activity ahead and bolt. Some make it to freedom, some get caught and slaughtered anyhow. That to me is always the saddest. There's been instances though where the animal will become the city's darling and they (Farm Sanctuary) gets involved and works with the slaughterhouse to keep the creature. Sometimes they have to file charges and go the legal path if the slaughterhouse reps decide to be jerks about it. Anyhow, Farm Sanctuary will bring the animal to their farm where it will live the rest of its life associating with other rescuees, feeling sunshine and roaming free. It's an organization I strongly believe in.

http://farmsanctuary.org/rescue/rescues/2007.html

[Andy B]

Didn't watch it as I had my head in the sand and from the sounds of it I'm quite glad I did...

You may be interested to know however that thanks to people waking my conscience up I have now found a butchers that does organic, free range, pampered, private yaucht owning, lived in luxury meat and I'm gonna give him a try when I go shopping tomorrow.

It'll probably cost me a fortune but it may help to shut my conscience up a bit!

See what you've done now

[Yudster]

I'm ridiculously and inexplicably proud of you Andy!

[foot-loose]

Didn't watch it as I had my head in the sand and from the sounds of it I'm quite glad I did...

You may be interested to know however that thanks to people waking my conscience up I have now found a butchers that does organic, free range, pampered, private yaucht owning, lived in luxury meat and I'm gonna give him a try when I go shopping tomorrow.

It'll probably cost me a fortune but it may help to shut my conscience up a bit!

See what you've done now

haha

That's class.

[Sunny So Cal]

Didn't watch it as I had my head in the sand and from the sounds of it I'm quite glad I did...

You may be interested to know however that thanks to people waking my conscience up I have now found a butchers that does organic, free range, pampered, private yaucht owning, lived in luxury meat and I'm gonna give him a try when I go shopping tomorrow.

It'll probably cost me a fortune but it may help to shut my conscience up a bit!

See what you've done now

Bless. But don't buy it unless they had their own masseuse, too

[ladbroke]

I am with some others on this one, I wouldn't want to kill all that I eat. Although I've slaughtered animals before and still do. Having said that I dont really care too much about whether the animal has had a good life or not. For me it's about the order of things, and the order is we eat tasty animals. They're animals bred for our food, so it's just a process. Ignore the cute eyes. They are bred for our food, and it's birth, growth, slaughter.

I grew up on a farm, and from the very start animals were food and profit. Cute piglets were fed up and slaughtered. Yes they were cute but you soon learned to become removed from it. They aren't human. I still shoot rabbits and although I dont like skinning rabbits, they taste good. Humans have rights, and until we make sure they all do, then we shouldn't be concerend whether aninmals do or not. Food chain-if you disagree with me thats fine, but don't be hypocritical and eat meat. Animals are bred for food, and it makes no difference whether they are happy or not, or live in good conditions. So long as the food is fit for human consumption

If people wish to pay a premium for organic, then that is their choice, and may ease their feelings. In fact farmers markets are a great place to get good pieces of meat. Please dont look at these animals as you would your cat or dog, they are food.

Now I'm waiting to get pilloried!

[foot-loose]

I understand your point, especially if you were brought up on a farm. My argument has never been based on the animal being 'cute', it's about the quality of life. In my opinion, they are not food until they have been slaughtered. Until that point, they should be treated with a degree of respect and I would imagine that the majority of farmers do care about their animals and their wellbeing.

Yes, they are bred for our food and yes it is part of the process, but to show a total disregard for life and to have them live in excruciating pain is wrong. I'll admit that is my opinion, but I don't see how anyone can really argue with it.

[ladbroke]

Yes, they are bred for our food and yes it is part of the process, but to show a total disregard for life and to have them live in excruciating pain is wrong. I'll admit that is my opinion, but I don't see how anyone can really argue with it.

For them to live in excruciating pain is a farmer not really doing their job properly. All farmers worth their living want their animals to be healthy so as to make a profit from them. Cosy conditions they certainly aren't, but profit and good quality livestock is in both the interest of the farmer and the consumer. Unnecessary suffering and mis-treatment I wouldn't stand for, but lets not forget they are animals bred for one purpose. Food. If they don't get to walk around in a grassy meadow, would you really be able to tell? They shouldn't suffer un duly but they don't really deserve a three bed semi in the home counties.

[Sunny So Cal]

Although I've slaughtered animals before and still do...Ignore the cute eyes. They are bred for our food, and it's birth, growth, slaughter...Cute piglets were fed up and slaughtered. Yes they were cute but you soon learned to become removed from it. They aren't human. I still shoot rabbits and although I dont like skinning rabbits, they taste good. Humans have rights, and until we make sure they all do, then we shouldn't be concerend whether aninmals do or not. Food chain-if you disagree with me thats fine, but don't be hypocritical and eat meat. Animals are bred for food, and it makes no difference whether they are happy or not, or live in good conditions. So long as the food is fit for human consumption. Please dont look at these animals as you would your cat or dog, they are food.

Baby animals appeal to our primal urge not to kill. It is an involuntary process in our brains to shut down aggressive tendencies when looking at immature beings (human babies included). It is a safety feature to protect the young. That is why people go "aaah" when they see any baby. Which is also why people feed squirrels in the park. Squirrels are nothing more than rodents and yet people sit around feeding them. Why? Because they have big eyes and small noses and evolutionary biology dictates that "aaah". Ladbroke, your "aaah" mechanism seems to be broken. Who wouldn't care whether the animal lived a happy life of good quality and in good conditions?? That's a really weird and cruel thing to say. Evolutionary biology seems to be failing you.

And, I'm not being hypocritical before you ask. I haven't eaten meat in over 20 years.

[MK Chris]

I do eat meat but I agree with Sunny So Cal and foot-loose.

The main culprits, surely, with badly treated animals, are factory farms, which I would have thought any regular farmer would be against? It would hurt their own profits for a start, even ignoring the abysmal conditions that people need to be aware about.

[Zoot]

I went into our local Tesco's last night, they are completely sold out of organic chickens.

[Ballbag]

I would say that the naivety of the nation regarding the well being of our meat products pre-slaughter is shocking, but this whole affair just goes to confirm how ignorant some people are. Seriously, how do they think we get our meat.

The BBC's been showing a similar series this week called "kill it cook it eat it". Where they document the life of young animals before they go to slaughter. For me it just reassured me about their well being and upkeep, but I watched it at a friends house whos housemate there and then decided to become a vegetarian.

[foot-loose]

For them to live in excruciating pain is a farmer not really doing their job properly. All farmers worth their living want their animals to be healthy so as to make a profit from them. Cosy conditions they certainly aren't, but profit and good quality livestock is in both the interest of the farmer and the consumer. Unnecessary suffering and mis-treatment I wouldn't stand for, but lets not forget they are animals bred for one purpose. Food. If they don't get to walk around in a grassy meadow, would you really be able to tell? They shouldn't suffer un duly but they don't really deserve a three bed semi in the home counties.

If the farmer is getting £0.03 per chicken which the supermarkets are selling at £2.50, then I don't really blame the farmers for doing what they must to make any sort of profit. The animals are not 'healthy' and they aint really good quality either. Unnecessary suffering and mistreatment is happening and the farmers admit it. They are bred to become food but that doesn't happen until they are dead. I aint saying they should sent off to the south of France for a two week break in the sun, but I don't think they should be standing in their own crap for their entire lives either.

Sunny - sorry, but I don't agree there is a primal urge not to kill baby animals, I think that is conditioning. If its the big eyes and small noses that make you go 'aahhhh' then I would blame Disney.

I would say that the naivety of the nation regarding the well being of our meat products pre-slaughter is shocking, but this whole affair just goes to confirm how ignorant some people are. Seriously, how do they think we get our meat.

The BBC's been showing a similar series this week called "kill it cook it eat it". Where they document the life of young animals before they go to slaughter. For me it just reassured me about their well being and upkeep, but I watched it at a friends house whos housemate there and then decided to become a vegetarian.

Yup - and it was a tad more realistic than the one with Jamie Oliver. Why people stop eating meat because they have seen how it is killed is beyond me. It's almost like they thought that the animal just lies down, goes to sleep, and magically turns into what they see in the supermarket.

[Ballbag]

If anyone watched the program I think they'll agree... how impressive were the slaughtermen. They did the job quickly, skilfully and without too much distress to the animal.

I still couldn't do it though.

[foot-loose]

If anyone watched the program I think they'll agree... how impressive were the slaughtermen. They did the job quickly, skilfully and without too much distress to the animal.

As I said in the other thread, I have only seen the one on veal (although I have recorded the 'highlights' show from Friday night). They did the job very quickly and professionally, however I don't think I am naive enough to believe that all slaughtermen up and down the country are as good as that.

I still couldn't do it though.

I've been wondering myself if I could do it. I think i've decided that I could if I absolutly have to, but I would never want to as long as there is someone better at it than me. When the aliens come and kill everyone else and I have to run and live in the mountains of Scotland, I'll chase and kill mountain goats. Not until then though.

[MK Chris]

What makes you think you'll survive that and no one else will?

[Yudster]

I understand where ladborke is coming from, and completely agree on the sentimantality thing - if you're going to eat meat, don't get all gooey about the fact your dinner had big brown eyes and a man with a stun gun put a gajillion volts through it and then cut its throat. If he hadn't, you wouldn't be eating it.

My arguments in favour of non-intensive farming are also valid though, and I make them from two standpoints - first, sentimentality has nothing to do with understanding that certain common farming practices involving abuse of sentient animals uneccessarily harsh, some would say barbaric. Thats a personal thing, and each individual will react to the images and information about these issues in their own way.

Second, and for me just as important, the ecological implications of the continuation of intensive farming methods (both for livestock and produce) are real, and significant. Thats an issue which will become clearer over time, and is political, as much as anything else. A lot of my work is involved in managing the buffers between the needs of property developers, farmers and ecological scientists, and a change in farming practice (allied to a change in retail policy too) is one of the things which will help those three factors stay balanced. Well, as balanced as they're going to get.

Don't get hung up on the word "organic". Sustainability is the key.

[Andy B]

My remote control for my tele isn't working so I wired it up to to one of the frozen chickens I bought last week.....rubbish didn't power it at all.

[Zoot]

My remote control for my tele isn't working so I wired it up to to one of the frozen chickens I bought last week.....rubbish didn't power it at all.

bu-bum-tish

[foot-loose]

What makes you think you'll survive that and no one else will?

The aliens have already told me that my plan is cool with them.

[foot-loose]

The 'dead'line was last Tuesday, so I think you are screwed.

[foot-loose]

You gave me the recipe. This reminds me of the old saying: "You can give a man some fridge cake and he will be yours for life, but give him the recipe and he don't need you no more... fool."

Fits quite nicely I feel. I also have a recipe for tablet - what more could I need? Goats, fridge cake and tablet. Sorted.