[foot-loose]

I'm not arguing that they are pack animals. But to say that they arn't 'loyal' doesn't make sense to me. Or to say they are not affectionate.

Its also a massive generalisation.

The cats vs dogs debate is a matter of personal opinion anyways.

[Yudster]

Of course it is, thats why I didn't enter it.

"Loyal" and "affectionate" are just human interpretations of certain aspects of a dog's natural pack-orientated behaviour. It's the human who has the need to attach emotion to it, not the dog. The dog's just doing what dogs do.

[foot-loose]

But surely whither its a natural thing or not doesn't matter? They still do it.

As a side note, there are massive differences between individual dogs, breeds of dogs and the way the dogs have been raised / trained. I can't see how they can all be packed into one category.

[Yudster]

Because they are all one species perhaps? Tends to be a unifying factor, even if separate groups exist within it.

There do seem to be huge differences in the ways certain breeds behave - apparently (I've been emailing again, he is wondering what on earth I am asking all these questions for....) with domestic dogs it's to do with selective breeding, you can selectively breed for physical traits, behavioural traits, levels of aggression etc. It's interesting to me that whilst pit bull and rottweiler attacks make the news, they are relatively rare. Those breeds are selectively bred for the ability to chew another dog (or something) to pieces, so even though attacks are rare they make the news because the victim is often seriously hurt or killed. But the breed of dog most likely to attack a human (apparently over four times as likely as any other breed) is the Border Collie, which has been selectively bred to round up sheep and control them by biting their bums when they step out of line.

I remember a vet saying that he always winced when he heard people praising border collies as making excellent pets, he reckons that they are dangerous, and he would never recommend them as a family pet (he's another labrador man, come to think of it). But upbringing and trianing must have a lot to do with it too I imagine, because there must be plenty of people whose border collies have never bitten anybody.

[foot-loose]

I can see the point with the border collies - My folks got a border collie pup about three weeks before I was born - so I was raised with her. She was an absolutly mint dog - never bit anyone or anything, really intelligent as well. As she got older, we got another border pup called Meg. She was a nightmare dog, we had her for about three months and she would bite, eat, chew, bite some more, chew some more - a lot worse than most puppies. We ended up taking her back to the farm and swapping her for another pup of the same litter, bodie, who was a cracking wee dog. (She died when she was six months old of a brain haemorrhage ).

That's what I mean when I say that it is down to the dog. And yes, I know they are all one species, but so are humans, and you certainly get pretty drastic differences between them - be it from person to person or from country to country.

I'm a bit confuddled as to what your point is in all this - I think it started with you saying that dogs arn't loyal or affectionate. I can't agree with that. I could agree with SOME dogs arn't loyal or affectionate. In as much the same way as SOME dogs are dangerous / violent. You can't tar them all with the same brush. The evolutionary process that got them to this point isn't really important in this discussion... in my opinion.


Ergo... dogs > cats.

[MK Chris]

I think a hell of a lot of a dog's temperament can be put down to its treatment by people.

[kendra k]

you're all wrong- get a guinea pig.

[Sunny So Cal]

I agree and I also agree with the comment earlier that if you haven't the time to devote to the animal you shouldn't be getting one. They're not fashion accessories (despite the Paris Hiltons of the world walking around with them in handbags) or pieces of furniture. They're a big commitment and once with you should be considered a part of your family and not something you'd set aside if you tire of it. Dogs are affectionate and loyal but cats are as well, they just show it by being a tad haughty.

[Yudster]

I'm a bit confuddled as to what your point is in all this - I think it started with you saying that dogs arn't loyal or affectionate.

No, it started with me saying that it's humans who interpret a dog's behaviour as loyal or affectionate. Such things are not in the dog's mind at all, emotions don't enter into it for them, that's human territory.

[foot-loose]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Your saying dogs don't have emotions?

I still disagree. Hollie can be happy, sad, annoyed, mischievous, frightened etc etc.

[Andy B]

Dogs wag their tails for lots of reasons.

I agree with foots, dog's do have emotions. Muffin can be happy, ecstatic, cheerful, excited, hyper, frustrated, moody resentful and protective.

Whilst I will submit that the concept of loyalty probably does not enter a dogs head, trust does. Muffin trusts me to protect her and provide for her. This makes her act in a loyal way towards me.

[Boboff]

Happy to be fed, ecstatic alpha male is tickling her tum, hyper as she hasn't been for a walk, protective because something is being threatened.

I am erring towards Yuds on this one. I think a dog will react to the situation and treatment, and diet and exercise it receives, this will mediate their response, which could be seen as an emotion or just a simple reaction. Emotion could be defined as something which is an unconsidered response, so in that way the other ones are right.

So I suppose then I can see it from both points of view.

My Dogs main emotion is Hungry. No matter how much you feed her, she still eats and eats until she is sick, and then eats her sick. Apparently Springers do this. She is wormed and exercised allot, and is not fat in the slightest. She loved it when we lived in a Pub, the first 12 months of her life she could beg for Bacon Fries at any time of the day or night ! Last couple of years her Bacon Fry supplies have dwindled to zero though !

She also loves to roll in Fox Pooh, why I do not know, it stinks !

[S4B]

Annoying me today? The bloody car, it refused to start this morning saying it had an engine systems fault. Apparently these modern cars have computers in them. Not holding out much hope as I can't start it so I can turn it off and on again!!!

Had to do my radio book review by phone - which I hate doing - I'm now very late for work and am incapable (for reasons I will not disclose) to walk to the bus stop. Today is not good!

[S4B]

Update on car situation now not getting it back till Monday afternoon!!!! There are no buses tomorrow, no idea how I'm going to get into work!!! At times like this I hate living in the sticks!

[MK Chris]

Can't they give you a courtesy car?

[Yudster]

A courtesy car that hasn't been booked three weeks in advance? What are you thinking Topher!

[Ezza]

I left my book for my coursework in Lancaster, meaning I can't get any work done for it and am unaware when I shall get it back.

[kendra k]

i really like lancaster.

s4b- do you have a bike?

bugging me: three exams and no clue on how to do them.

[Ezza]

I liked it too. Lots of hot men, alcohol and fun

[S4B]

i really like lancaster.

s4b- do you have a bike?

Nope I don't (in fact girls with bottoms the size of mine shouldn't ride bikes) and work is nearly 20 miles away. Borrowed my father in law's Lexus!!! Am now annoyed because when I did get there I did a couple of jobs, threw up, passed out and ended up asleep in the staff room all afternoon. I wouldn't mind but I haven't even had an alcoholic beverage for nearly a week! My body is obviously aware I am on holiday next week.

[MK Chris]

Don't you know that fat-bottomed girls, they make the rockin' world go round.

20 miles isn't that far to cycle if you've got to get to work one way or another.. as a last resort, I'd do it.

[S4B]

But I don't have a bike and I was feeling like crap! Anyway got there in the end even if it was a waste of time.

[kendra k]

biking when sick is not a good idea, and 20 miles is sort of a far ride.

but big bottom girls on bikes is no problem.

[Sunny So Cal]

I liked it too. Lots of hot men, alcohol and fun

Lancaster you say??
*makes mental note to include this wonderland on next itinerary*

[Bonanzoid]

If it gets uncomfortable, you could get her to do the ol' "Emergency phonecall".