[JonnyYesno]

The results re-enforce my belief that a large majority of the British public are simply morons.

We aren't though. We are just confused. How are we equipped to understand all the complex issues faced by government and choose who we see best to manage them? All parties are offering convergent policies that are desperately pragmatic. You'd be equally moronic to vote for someone just for the sake of their emotive rhetoric.

[TIAL]

The sad thing is that, despite them getting less votes than last time, they would have had even less if it weren't for certain people who weren't racist but just voted for them out of protest.

They were debating this on Question Time tonight. Lots of people voted for the BNP simply as a protest vote to show their annoyance with the main parties. On here, we're all pretty well informed (I like to think), but a lot of people simply don't know the facts about the BNP. So they just see Nick Griffin giving a similar opinion to them about the expenses scandal, think he's a decent bloke and just vote for him.

[Ed Pummelon]

The results re-enforce my belief that a large majority of the British public are simply morons.

We aren't though. We are just confused. How are we equipped to understand all the complex issues faced by government and choose who we see best to manage them? All parties are offering convergent policies that are desperately pragmatic. You'd be equally moronic to vote for someone just for the sake of their emotive rhetoric.

You're working on the assumption that the majority of people have even given any serious thought to the issues faced by government and the policies of the different parties. In a country where the most popular newspapers (by circulation) are The Sun, The Mirror and The Daily Mail, I'm more inclined to believe the majority are morons.

[Yudster]

The alternative you suggest though Yuds...simply ignore the BNP....

Where on earth did you read that i had suggested this? I have never said that the way to deal with them is to ignore them. The way to deal with them is by dealing with voter apathy which would automatically dilute their influence at the ballot box.

[Ed Pummelon]

"Suspect in US Holocaust museum guard killing has links to BNP"

No great surprise.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ju ... -von-brunn

[MK Chris]

No one I've spoken to has any idea about their repatriation policy, for example.

Sorry to say it, but the people you've spoken to are ignorant.

"Suspect in US Holocaust museum guard killing has links to BNP"

No great surprise.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ju ... -von-brunn

I read about that yesterday, but I didn't put it on here, because it was only on a blog that I read it. No great surprise, but surely explosive if true.

Interestingly, I also read a quote from Fat Hitler from one of the meetings in America that this fella attended... it seems that when he speaks abroad, he masks his real intentions less:

The BNP isn't about selling out its ideas, which are your ideas too, but we are determined to sell them. And that means basically to use saleable words - freedom, security, identity, democracy.

Perhaps one day, by being rather more subtle, [where] we’ve got ourselves in a position where we control the British broadcasting media, then perhaps one day the British people might change their mind and say ‘yes, every last one must go’. Perhaps they will one day. But if you hold that out as your sole aim to start with, you’re going to get absolutely nowhere. So instead of talking about racial purity, we talk about identity.

Those are some scary * ideas.

[Ed Pummelon]

"Suspect in US Holocaust museum guard killing has links to BNP"

No great surprise.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ju ... -von-brunn

I read about that yesterday, but I didn't put it on here, because it was only on a blog that I read it. No great surprise, but surely explosive if true.

Unfortunately it only seems to be The Guardian that's picked up on it so far. Hopefully the story will spread a bit wider during the day, let's see.

[Yudster]

That little phrase "racial purity" is absolutely terrifying. The further away we get from the Third Reich and living memories of it, the more dangerous these ideas are, especially in a world where the teaching of recent history is an option.

[Ed Pummelon]

The Daily Mail and The Times have picked up the US shooting / BNP story now, good to see it's spreading.

[JonnyYesno]

You're working on the assumption that the majority of people have even given any serious thought to the issues faced by government and the policies of the different parties. In a country where the most popular newspapers (by circulation) are The Sun, The Mirror and The Daily Mail, I'm more inclined to believe the majority are morons.

No I'm working on the assumption that even when in possession of what you think are the full facts, it is almost impossible to correspond a party's policies with economic and welfare issues and then to vote accordingly with the confidence those promises will be met. That's why people stay away from the polls, they feel unable to untangle the complexity. Have you been able to clarify the most favourable party ? I'll watch this space to see.

Sneering at Mail-readers and Sun-readers as if they believe and agree in all the nonsense they read is a tad moronic itself and continual sweeping generalisations of their readership whiffs of snobbery, or even, ironically, superiority.

The Daily Mail and The Times have picked up the US shooting / BNP story now, good to see it's spreading.

But Ed the readers are morons. Are you giving them credit to condemn the shooter? You can't have it both ways.

[Ed Pummelon]

You're working on the assumption that the majority of people have even given any serious thought to the issues faced by government and the policies of the different parties. In a country where the most popular newspapers (by circulation) are The Sun, The Mirror and The Daily Mail, I'm more inclined to believe the majority are morons.

No I'm working on the assumption that even when in possession of what you think are the full facts, it is almost impossible to correspond a party's policies with economic and welfare issues and then to vote accordingly with the confidence those promises will be met. That's why people stay away from the polls, they feel unable to untangle the complexity. Have you been able to clarify the most favourable party ? I'll watch this space to see.

Sneering at Mail-readers and Sun-readers as if they believe and agree in all the nonsense they read is a tad moronic itself and continual sweeping generalisations of their readership whiffs of snobbery, or even, ironically, superiority.

The Daily Mail and The Times have picked up the US shooting / BNP story now, good to see it's spreading.

But Ed the readers are morons. Are you giving them credit to condemn the shooter? You can't have it both ways.

Jonny, you're wasting your time trying to bait me. If you could follow a logical train of thought I'd be happy to take you on, but you're obviously more concerned about sparking an argument than discussing the issue. Sorry mate, not interested.

[TIAL]

Any reader of newspapers (no matter which one) are going to be at least slightly informed of the BNP's real aims.
The real ones to worry about are those who refuse to read/watch the news, live a life very sheltered from current affairs and vote simply because they've heard from their friends that the BNP is against the expenses scandal.

[MK Chris]

I know it's no big shock that journalists are hypocritical, but when it comes to the BNP, the Daily Mail as well as Dirty Desmond's publications are quite astonishing... they consistently criticise the BNP - nothing wrong with that - but at the same time moan just as much about 'immigrants'. Well, anyway - Anton Vowl says it better than me, with examples.

[JonnyYesno]

Jonny, you're wasting your time trying to bait me. If you could follow a logical train of thought I'd be happy to take you on, but you're obviously more concerned about sparking an argument than discussing the issue. Sorry mate, not interested.

Well I was asking you to clarify why the 'morons' couldn't grasp the apparant simplicity of voting. That's not baiting. I am also curious as to why you think all tabloid readers are automatically moronic. I thought I was clear on that too.

Your hackneyed "if you could follow a logical train of thought" guff won't wash, what would you like me to explain to turn this 'argument' into the discussion you'd prefer.

I just think that you are repeatedly guilty of sweeping stereotypical branding similar to the morons you describe and clearly feel uncomfortable about justifying it.

Oh well. Nazis eh?

The real ones to worry about are those who refuse to read/watch the news, live a life very sheltered from current affairs and vote simply because they've heard from their friends that the BNP is against the expenses scandal.

Well if they refused to read/watch the news how would they have known about the expenses scandal in the first place? See Ed for your logic critique.

[Johnny 1989]

The alternative you suggest though Yuds...simply ignore the BNP...that isn't likely to work! They won't just give up and walk away from politics, people need to stand up and voice their opposition at every opportunity.

Surprised noone has had a pop at Griffin yet by the way Ed. Shame all the peaceful, loving people get killed (Kennedy brothers, Luther King, Lennon, etc.) and the utter bastards don't.

I agree, why Robert Mugabe hasn't been bumped off yet is beyond me, horrible nasty * still alive & well in his 80's. Yet I've known some good, caring people die in the 30's!

[Johnny 1989]

The alternative you suggest though Yuds...simply ignore the BNP...that isn't likely to work! They won't just give up and walk away from politics, people need to stand up and voice their opposition at every opportunity.

Surprised noone has had a pop at Griffin yet by the way Ed. Shame all the peaceful, loving people get killed (Kennedy brothers, Luther King, Lennon, etc.) and the utter bastards don't.

I agree, why Robert Mugabe hasn't been bumped off yet is beyond me, horrible nasty * still alive & well in his 80's. Yet I've known some good, caring people die in the 30's!

Forgot to add:

That just shows you how screwed up this world is, the good die young the bastards live to a ripe old age

[Ed Pummelon]

Well I was asking you to clarify why the 'morons' couldn't grasp the apparant simplicity of voting. That's not baiting. I am also curious as to why you think all tabloid readers are automatically moronic. I thought I was clear on that too.

Your hackneyed "if you could follow a logical train of thought" guff won't wash, what would you like me to explain to turn this 'argument' into the discussion you'd prefer.

I just think that you are repeatedly guilty of sweeping stereotypical branding similar to the morons you describe and clearly feel uncomfortable about justifying it.

Oh well. Nazis eh?

Well if they refused to read/watch the news how would they have known about the expenses scandal in the first place? See Ed for your logic critique.

You're getting worked up and making it personal - I know this is an emotional subject but you've clearly let it get the better of you. Time to calm down and change gear. I won't bother coming back to you again - as I already said, if you're looking for a fight, look elsewhere. In the meantime, enjoy your weekend.

[TIAL]

Well if they refused to read/watch the news how would they have known about the expenses scandal in the first place? See Ed for your logic critique.

I think you underestimate how much information is gathered from people talking to others. Tertiary information and hearsay will have played a big part in this election.

[JonnyYesno]

Heh. I'm calm thanks. You've escalated from using the terms debate > argument > fight, quite bizarrely. If quoting your posts and asking explanation is 'personal' in the pejorative sense then I don't know what threads are for. Maybe you just prefer to see a stream of unchallenged blog-style posts. Fair enough.

[Ed Pummelon]

The BNP / US shootings link has now been picked up by The Telegraph and The Independent plus a couple of the tabloids, which is hopefully good news.

[MK Chris]

Speaking of the Independent, if they become part-owned by the Daily Mail's proprietors, as is looking likely, The Guardian may become the only paper worth looking at.

[TIAL]

Would you say the Guardian was very left wing?
My dad can't stand it, but it's my paper of choice. Maybe that says more about our political standings than the paper itself.

[MK Chris]

I think the Guardian qualifies as centre-left, so no - if you're inclined to talk about your politics in that way that is.

The thing with the Guardian is they're quite prepared to publish articles or columns written by people whose opinion don't necessarily reflect that of the paper in general, which is far more than you can say for scummy rags like the Daily Mail et al.

[TIAL]

I agree. To be honest I think my dad's judgement of it is quite archaic. He seems to think that everyone who reads it has dreadlocks and only eats fair trade hummus.

[Ed Pummelon]

The thing with the Guardian is they're quite prepared to publish articles or columns written by people whose opinion don't necessarily reflect that of the paper in general, which is far more than you can say for scummy rags like the Daily Mail et al.

In fact they had some contributions from academic historians the other day about the BNP election results, the first one of which opened by talking about how he normally contributed to the Daily Mail.