[Bonanzoid]

Just watched this on BBC3 and it made me think a little. The title may have been ironic given that there are no openly gay British footballers, but it raised an important issue. Having talked about it on TwittOr with Nic it made me want to see if anyone else watched it and/or had an opinion?

Personally it annoyed me a bit. I just don't see how someone's sexuality can affect anything enough to warrant homophobic abuse. That said, I can see why there are no openly gay or bisexual footballers in Britain. The abuse they'd get from opposition crowds would be disgusting, and for them it's not worth it.

On a more primitive note, I can't help but think anyone who's homophobic is an uneducated cretin.

Thoughts?

[foot-loose]

Poof.

[Bonanzoid]

Homophobe.

[foot-loose]

As bonanzoid points out, an openly gay footballer would likely get a fair torrent of abuse. That said, it would do the culture of the sport a lot of good. The phrase "taking one for the team" has never been more apt (on so many levels).

[chrysostom]

I'm watching this now, the documentary itself is poor and quite one sided. It's not from a football fan's perspective, and Amal's questions have been terrible. She comes across as a journalist looking to get a headline by waiting for someone to slip up (it's no surprise that Joey Barton wanted to get in front of a camera to talk about it).

It's difficult to stamp out abuse from opposition crowds in general - if there's anything different, then they'll pick up on it to put off the player. Be it race, sexual orientation, appearance or even a family member's issues (John Terry's dad). Clubs need to be as hard about it as they are with racism, but even then - a LOT of general inappropriate abuse still slips through the cracks unnoticed in the terraces.

The conclusion of there needing to be another high profile gay footballer is ultimately correct, but I think the worst solution - as you'll be asking them to be a martyr for the cause.

I was disappointed in the documentary as it offered no real insight into being a gay footballer in my opinion.

[Bonanzoid]

Yeah, the documentary itself didn't offer much, the only good point is that it brought the issue to prominence. I did get the same feeling that she was waiting for someone to slip up too.

On a sidenote too, the presenter is gorgeous.

[chrysostom]

Is it really backwards and homophobic to say that you wouldn't shower with a gay person of the same sex?

[Nicola_Red]

I watched this too, as Bonanzoid says, and even though I'm not a football fan Amal Fashanu did come across as a bit clueless in places (gorgeous though, as he mentioned).

It does make me despair that no footballers feel they could come out and be accepted - it seems so behind all other areas of life, including even rugby. But then I used to watch rugby and the crowds were nothing like football crowds. I've encountered homophobic abuse before, but only on the internet - I pass for straight easily in real life, so I'm never gonna experience it face to face, which sounds unbelievably scary. The idea of a crowd of football fans shouting stuff like that is enough to terrify anyone!

Is it really backwards and homophobic to say that you wouldn't shower with a gay person of the same sex?

Yes. It makes the assumption that all gay people are sex-mad and will pounce on you if they see you naked, and doesn't take into account the fact that a) they have some self-control and b) hey, they might not fancy you!

[bmstinton93]

Is it really backwards and homophobic to say that you wouldn't shower with a gay person of the same sex?

Yes. It makes the assumption that all gay people are sex-mad and will pounce on you if they see you naked, and doesn't take into account the fact that hey, they might not fancy you![/quote]
But a woman wouldn't freely shower with a man that isn't their partner.

[Nicola_Red]

No, true. But that's not a common situation anyway, whereas people of the same gender showering together after sport is.

[chrysostom]

Is it really backwards and homophobic to say that you wouldn't shower with a gay person of the same sex?

Yes. It makes the assumption that all gay people are sex-mad and will pounce on you if they see you naked, and doesn't take into account the fact that hey, they might not fancy you!

But a woman wouldn't freely shower with a man that isn't their partner.

Exactly - it's not a case of actual fear of being viewed as a sexual object of desire by that person (necessarily). The naked body itself is something that is quite sexualised. Even if I knew a woman wasn't attracted to me, I wouldn't be able to shower in front of her because on some level it's highly likely that the male naked body will have sexual connotations to her, and to that end it's reasonable to worry there will be some judgement on sexual attractiveness (be it positive or negative) - and vice versa, regardless of whether that body is attractive or not.

[Boboff]

Chrys, it's not really quite as straight forward as Nic says, and you are right to be unsure. We all know that logically it makes no difference what so ever, and conversely a bit of girl on girl in the showers after cheerleading.... well, nothing wrong with that.

Given the amount of money these people get paid, they should have a bloody bathroom each, I would insist, I don't want all insundry looking at my winkle...

[Nicola_Red]

Admittedly, communal showers are a bit of a weird situation full stop. But if I was a sporty type, I'd be perfectly capable of showering with other women without looking at them in a sexual context.

[chrysostom]

I could never shower with another woman without looking at them in a sexual context - briefly at the very least, I rarely meet women who I don't at least assess in terms of sexual attractiveness.

[Nicola_Red]

I guess maybe that's just the difference between men and women, rather than the difference between gay and straight people. I can regard women as attractive or pretty without actually fancying them - don't ask me how that works, I don't really understand it.

[bmstinton93]

I could never shower with another woman without looking at them in a sexual context - briefly at the very least, I rarely meet women who I don't at least assess in terms of sexual attractiveness.

Yeah same here. Its my natural human reaction.

[chrysostom]

I guess maybe that's just the difference between men and women, rather than the difference between gay and straight people. I can regard women as attractive or pretty without actually fancying them - don't ask me how that works, I don't really understand it.

But it's much less likely to be an issue of sexual attractiveness if it's between people with whom there's a very small chance that they'll be sexually attracted to, or evaluate sexually.

If there's someone who could potentially be a sexual partner for you - why wouldn't you evaluate their naked body?

The threat of my body being evaluated sexually while in a non-sexual context is what would make me anxious, it's more to do with my insecurities with my body than with being uncomfortable showering with men tbf. If I had an amazing body it would be on display all the time.

[Nicola_Red]

My flatmate did say to me recently that he was jealous of the fact I can eye up other women without being seen as a sex pest, cos I get a 'free pass'

[dimtimjim]

I could never shower with another woman without looking at them in a sexual context - briefly at the very least, I rarely meet women who I don't at least assess in terms of sexual attractiveness.

Yeah same here. Its my natural human reaction.

So, you assess them, decide 'wouldn't touch that with barge pole', then tap it (sorry Nic) anyway...

but, back on subject. To be honest, I can't believe in this modern day and age... They let ruddy gays do anything! they should all be taken out and shot in front of their families*.



* not really.

[Nicola_Red]

So, you assess them, decide 'wouldn't touch that with barge pole', then tap it (sorry Nic) anyway...

Oh, I've done that. Any port in a storm, as they say...

[foot-loose]

To start a ridiculous argument that will read like I'm taking much more seriously than I actually am: should gay folk warn other people in the shower prior to getting in? Or should they be banned from communal showers altogether? I'd suggest they had to shower with the ladies but I wouldn't subject the gays to those horrible naked bodies.

Do I sneak a look at the gym? Yep, and it's not deliberate, I try to avoid it but it's paraded about too much. Does anyone notice me sneaking said look? Nope. So do they care? Nope. So do I care? Nope

The real question, Chrysososos, is do you care about showering beside a guy you know to be gay? Cos I reckon you've already showered beside many other gay guys you didn't know about.

[Yudster]

I guess maybe that's just the difference between men and women, rather than the difference between gay and straight people. I can regard women as attractive or pretty without actually fancying them - don't ask me how that works, I don't really understand it.

I can think of dozens of men who are clearly gorgeous but that I have no sexual attraction to at all. And I am attracted to certain people who would definitely not be classed as good looking. I work and also play squash with a woman who is lesbian, and there is at least one other lesbian squash player at our club that I am aware of (although we don't play her, she's too bloody good) - I genuinely don't think any of us have ever given a second thought to the showering scenario.

[DevilsDuck]

I think Topher has a copy of that on his computer

[Bonanzoid]

I wouldn't shower with anyone else, gay or straight, male or female just because I'd find it uncomfortable. Obviously if it was with one lady then it'd be fine but I find sexuality irrelevant when it comes to that argument. That's just me though. I'll put it down to being self conscious!

[Nicola_Red]

It is a bit of an off-topic argument. I don't even know if players still shower together at professional clubs.

Having never really heard of Joey Barton before his little spree of slagging off Moyles on Twitter a few weeks ago, I was surprised by how he came across on screen. I was expecting a typical dumb footballer, but he was pretty articulate. Did the other people who watched it agree?