[Bruvva]

There's a huge difference between "legal" and "moral" though, the government should close these tax loopholes to ensure everyone does pay a fair amount of tax, it's entirely unfair for people like him and Barlow (apparently) to use their vast earnings to exploit a loophole in the system so they pay less tax while your average man in the street coughs up the normal amount. The problem is, the politicians have a vested interest in exploiting the same loopholes so do nothing other than pay lip service to the whole thing - I seem to recall Labour making an issue of this when they were in power, they did nothing about it in the end. In short, blame the governments for allowing these loopholes to exist.

*quick edit*

Oh, and Cameron can * off getting high and mighty about this considering how HIS family made its money : http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/apr/20/cameron-family-tax-havens

[dimtimjim]

Yeah, we need to do as they say, not as they do....

[dimtimjim]

Cameron, the little odious twunt.

Go Lottie. I agree.

[MK Chris]

I was going to post the same link as Bruvva, Cameron's posturing has gone too far this time and I hope he regrets it very soon.

I agree Carr was stupid to do it - I'd like to think that even if I was rich, I would be inclined to pay my fair share... I also agree with Yudster on the bigger picture of the corporations avoiding paying their tax.

[chrysostom]

[dimtimjim]

Told you Vodaphone are worse - and its tolerated by our bent government!

[Bonanzoid]

Surprised Rangers FC hasn't been mentioned more in here. They owed debts in excess of £90m, then played the victim when the HMRC turned down their proposed CVA of £7.5m. In the end, they'll form as a new company and pay off a mere £5.5m of their debt. Scandalous.

I may not have the figures bang on there, but close enough.

[Ajescent]

If it's legal, I don't think "morals" should play a part in anything considering he's not killing/harming anyone.

[Yudster]

Weeell - someone tweeted something along the lines of "Why is everyone behaving as though Jimmy Carr has killed a baby?!" to which someone replied "Because babies die in underfunded hospitals".

Tax avoidance is unfair, I prefer that term to "immoral" in these circumstances. Its clearly wrong that people on low to average incomes should pay the full rate of tax and people who earn more are able to avoid paying most of their fair share. The fact that its legal just underlines that the rules are made by the people who most benefit from them - ie NOT us. I highly doubt that anything like even half of MPs pay the full amount of tax that they should, so its easy to see why these loopholes have been created, and then left.

That being said, Jimmy Carr is not only a teeny tiny drop in a bucket full of massive dicksplashes, he's admitted his naivety (*gives benefit of doubt here*) and sorted his finances out. He's been singled out because of his celebrity.

Problem is, just making schemes like this one illegal won't help - rich people know and have always known that paying tax is for poor people, not them. The whole taxation system needs to be overhauled. One suggestion I have read about would be to scrap income tax, NI etc, and tax people's consumption. Your corrupt corporate fat-cat or mega-rich drug baron can easily get away without paying income tax, but if you levied that tax on consumables, they would HAVE to pay - every time they buy petrol, clothes, jewellery etc. And if they choose to own a massive fuel guzzling car, and buy top end designer clothes and jewellery and get their groceries from Fortnum's, they will pay a lot more than you and me.

That's a massively over-simplified picture, but in theory, it works and economists have been trying to point governments towards it for decades - but its no surprise that no administration has ever chosen to take it seriously. It would be fair, and it wouldn't rely on the workers to finance running the country, the fat cats would have to do their bit too - and that will never sit well with any government.

[SAV1OUR]

It serves him well apologising. Now he doesn't look like Jim Davidson who has just argued 'good for him'.

That would have been a spectacular fail to have the likes of Jim Davidson as a cheerleader.

[chrisjames]

How the country misses Jim Davidson and his openly racist jokes! (irony)

[dimtimjim]

Weeell - someone tweeted something along the lines of "Why is everyone behaving as though Jimmy Carr has killed a baby?!" to which someone replied "Because babies die in underfunded hospitals".

Tax avoidance is unfair, I prefer that term to "immoral" in these circumstances. Its clearly wrong that people on low to average incomes should pay the full rate of tax and people who earn more are able to avoid paying most of their fair share. The fact that its legal just underlines that the rules are made by the people who most benefit from them - ie NOT us. I highly doubt that anything like even half of MPs pay the full amount of tax that they should, so its easy to see why these loopholes have been created, and then left.

That being said, Jimmy Carr is not only a teeny tiny drop in a bucket full of massive dicksplashes, he's admitted his naivety (*gives benefit of doubt here*) and sorted his finances out. He's been singled out because of his celebrity.

Problem is, just making schemes like this one illegal won't help - rich people know and have always known that paying tax is for poor people, not them. The whole taxation system needs to be overhauled. One suggestion I have read about would be to scrap income tax, NI etc, and tax people's consumption. Your corrupt corporate fat-cat or mega-rich drug baron can easily get away without paying income tax, but if you levied that tax on consumables, they would HAVE to pay - every time they buy petrol, clothes, jewellery etc. And if they choose to own a massive fuel guzzling car, and buy top end designer clothes and jewellery and get their groceries from Fortnum's, they will pay a lot more than you and me.

That's a massively over-simplified picture, but in theory, it works and economists have been trying to point governments towards it for decades - but its no surprise that no administration has ever chosen to take it seriously. It would be fair, and it wouldn't rely on the workers to finance running the country, the fat cats would have to do their bit too - and that will never sit well with any government.

Jeez, have you got nothing intelligent to say?!!

[The Deadly]

It really is interesting to see how loved Gary Barlow is. He really has got away with this.

[Yudster]

I don't know, for me its less that I love Gary Barlow and more that I would far rather see the likes of Cameron and his cronies (and everyone else in government) come clean about their own tax avoidance. And also do something about corporate tax avoidance, which would really make a difference.

[R94N]

It seems like he has been bullied and pressured into apologising.

[Yudster]

Well I hope he was pressured, by public opinion and professional advice. Not sure where you get "bullied" from - he was put under proper pressure to do the right thing - how is that bullying?

[The Deadly]

I think David Cameron put Jimmy in a horrible position. Jimmy Carr isn't the only person involved in a scheme like this and Cameron made it seem that way by saying what he said. David Cameron could have said exactly the same thing but without naming Jimmy specifically.

[neilt0]

How anyone can justify Carr's behaviour is inexplicable to me.

He paid tax equivalent to someone earning £12,500 yet he actually earned 280x that amount. How is that fair in anyone's head?

He paid for his £10,000,000 house in cash. No mortgage. He could do that because he didn't pay any tax!

To justify that by saying "Well, it's perfectly legal" is ridiculous. If it was perfectly legal to strangle kittens, what would be the response if Carr was on TV every Friday strangling a couple of kittens? "Well, I don't agree with it myself, but it's legal, so I cannot judge". No. * off, I'm judging.

As for Carr's belated apology -- it's clearly back-pedalling because of the overwhelming public outrage.
His first response was not an apology. It's what he really felt. He justified it by saying "I pay only what I need to", which is bullshit in itself. He was paying 99.5% less than he needed to. Funneling funds offshore is not only immoral, it's also something HMRC may judge illegal.
I hope they claw back all the money he should have paid, no-one goes to his gigs or watches his shows and he has to sell his house. * him, he's a greedy twunt.

The only reason he changed his mind was because he knew if he didn't issue an apology, he'd have no career -- without the backing of the public and his peers, he'd end up like Angus Deayton.

It doesn't matter that there others doing it -- they're all greedy, selfish bastards as well -- including I'm sure many of Cameron's chums. That's not the point. Carr is just a high profile example. Getting away with murder is not excused because there are other murderers. You're all going to suffer the consequences of your wicked ways!

Blood boiling!

[Yudster]

That was a great post.

[Yudster]

I hope it isn't. If it is, keep kittens away from Jim Davidson.

[dimtimjim]

How anyone can justify Carr's behaviour is inexplicable to me.

He paid tax equivalent to someone earning £12,500 yet he actually earned 280x that amount. How is that fair in anyone's head?

He paid for his £10,000,000 house in cash. No mortgage. He could do that because he didn't pay any tax!

To justify that by saying "Well, it's perfectly legal" is ridiculous. If it was perfectly legal to strangle kittens, what would be the response if Carr was on TV every Friday strangling a couple of kittens? "Well, I don't agree with it myself, but it's legal, so I cannot judge". No. * off, I'm judging.

As for Carr's belated apology -- it's clearly back-pedalling because of the overwhelming public outrage.
His first response was not an apology. It's what he really felt. He justified it by saying "I pay only what I need to", which is bullshit in itself. He was paying 99.5% less than he needed to. Funneling funds offshore is not only immoral, it's also something HMRC may judge illegal.
I hope they claw back all the money he should have paid, no-one goes to his gigs or watches his shows and he has to sell his house. * him, he's a greedy twunt.

The only reason he changed his mind was because he knew if he didn't issue an apology, he'd have no career -- without the backing of the public and his peers, he'd end up like Angus Deayton.

It doesn't matter that there others doing it -- they're all greedy, selfish bastards as well -- including I'm sure many of Cameron's chums. That's not the point. Carr is just a high profile example. Getting away with murder is not excused because there are other murderers. You're all going to suffer the consequences of your wicked ways!

Blood boiling!

Cracking post. But, I still think although Jimmy is at fault, its not like he is an expert in tax law, so all this boils down to is a clever accountant doing exactly what he's paid to do. As has already been pointed out, these rules are made by our government for a reason. Its wrong, but Jimmy is only doing what 1000's of other high earners also do.

Hate the game, not the player.

[Yudster]

See that's a good post too. I hate feeling so ambivalent. Opinionated is my default setting, I can't handle this.

[neilt0]

Carr is not an idiot. There is no way anyone can hear an accountant say "Well, I've found a way you can earn £4m and pay 1% tax!" and think "Sounds perfectly reasonable to me!" No bloody way. He knew it was dodgy and he went with it out of pure greed.

He knew exactly what was going on. He knew it was a scam. Call off-shoring funds to avoid virtually all tax "legal" if you must, but Carr clearly knew what was going on. He can count.

As much as I find crooked accountants to be scum, part of me hopes Carr's accountant buggers off to Brazil with all his money. It would be poetic justice.
Unfortunately, that exact scenario has happened to quite a few rich celebs in the past.

[dimtimjim]

Carr is not an idiot. There is no way anyone can hear an accountant say "Well, I've found a way you can earn £4m and pay 1% tax!" and think "Sounds perfectly reasonable to me!" No bloody way. He knew it was dodgy and he went with it out of pure greed.

He knew exactly what was going on. He knew it was a scam. Call off-shoring funds to avoid virtually all tax "legal" if you must, but Carr clearly knew what was going on. He can count.

As much as I find crooked accountants to be scum, part of me hopes Carr's accountant buggers off to Brazil with all his money. It would be poetic justice.
Unfortunately, that exact scenario has happened to quite a few rich celebs in the past.

Ok. I'll agree Jimmy knew exactly what was going on, but his accountant is PAID to sort this stuff, its why they earn a fair amount themselves. The accountant is not crooked, they have years of education to learn all about these legal loopholes.

Again, i understand your anger, but have you tried to look at this situation from his eyes? So, you're doing alright for yourself, yet every time you do a job, you have to give HALF what you earn to the government in tax. Again, thats HALF. I'd hate to pay 50% tax on earning £100, let alone if I was earning millions.

Can you honestly say, putting yourself in the exact same situation Jimmy was in, you'd stand pround and day "Oh, thats an interesting FULLY LEGAL idea, but no thanks Mr Accountant, send 'em the full £1.75M." I know I wouldn't, and I doubt you would too.

Do you think I'm an idiot because my accountant saves me approx £2k of tax payment per year in fully legal above board accounting?!!

Hate the game, not the player.

[neilt0]

There's a massive difference between being self-employed (as Jimmy is) and having an accountant run your books so that you write off legitimate business expenses like travelling to a gig etc. so that you save a few grand (or more) a year and being part of an illegal offshore tax scampiracy! And you know it.

Of course tax write-offs are fair. I don't even care when they are questionable -- like writing off a laptop for "work" if you use it solely for personal reasons. Fine, whatever. I don't even care about that MP whose husband was claiming porn as expenses. Some of those MPs were criminals, but also, some were being scapegoated for political reasons, and that's a shame. Carr is not a scapegoat, he's (possibly) a criminal. Ignorance is not a defence in the eyes of the law. It didn't work for Wesley Snipes.

This was my tweet to Jimmy on first hearing the news:



I know he's one of the hardest-working men in show business. He's constantly doing live gigs. I respected that as in that business, you need to strike while the iron is hot and go out and earn while you are flavour of the month. Jimmy works hard and deserves all he earns. That doesn't mean he should pay less tax than the woman who cleans his £10m house.