[Yudster]

I think (purely based on what's been posted) the moomin hunter is homophobic. And possibly a few other things -phobic as well. And possibly some stuff-ist. But if he - and many others - is, I'm not quite sure what legislation can do about it. You can't legislate for what people will think, you can only use it to curtail behaviour (and that includes comments made on internet forums, which maybe the moomin hunter should consider). There is an educational element to it I suppose, but there are always going to be people who are beyond the reach of that.

[thee moomin hunter]

im not homophobic and i dont think chris is either

[Gaspode_The_Wonder_Dog]

just an ignorant fool then.

[thee moomin hunter]

sorry, who is ignorant?

[ladbroke]

Hi all, I'm new here, but I've been a fan of Moyles since his Chiltern FM days. The homophobic accusations gathered speed after the mobile phone ringtone debacle, but IMO it's all in the way something is said rather than what is said. I think the affection between Aled and Chris is quite evident from their rapport, and people need to listen more to get a look at the whole picture of their working relationship. A gay man wouldn't work for a homophobic DJ, and a homophobic DJ wouldn't want a gay producer. Lets face it, it would be easy for Aled to complain about Chris' homophobic behaviour, as quite rightly this is now seen as unacceptable in the work place.

[MK Chris]

Ah you must be from sort of round here then.

[Yudster]

im not homophobic and i dont think chris is either

Good. But you must admit some of your comments have been decidedly so. I can see that you may have just expressed yourself like that for effect though, I'm just not sure how useful that is.

[Yudster]

You are an immensely wise person for one so young Miss Lalottie.

[MK Chris]

Also, nice use of 'plank'.

[ellipse]

Short answer: Chris' homophobia (or not as the case may be) is irrelevant. The language he uses is homophobic.

Longer answer:

Every time someone uses "gay" to describe something that sucks/isn't cool/whatever it cross-reinforces the belief that if something that is crap is gay, conversely anything that is gay is crap. I accept that when someone says "that music is so gay" they don't actually mean that it has a homosexual orientation, and they're expressing their dislike. But there is no way on earth that Chris could get away with saying "that's so ni$$er" - it just wouldn't be permitted by listeners at large, and rightly so. I know that there is currently no group that uses "ni$$er" in a colloquial way to describe "lamness/crapness" of things, but the point stands for comparison.

In fact, to take the example further, Chris wouldn't be able to say "that's so ni$$er" even if he was talking about Black/Afro-Carribean music because simply the word itself is offensive, and from that perspective so should gay be viewed. I'm not gonna get into a debate about Black people saying "ni$$er" - that's a genuinely different debate about reclaiming the words - but it seems to me that the outrage expressed by the British public at the treatment of Shilpa Shetty in BB earlier this year, which used far milder language than that, would support my view.

Finally, even though (as I believe) Chris is not homophobic, and that his use of "gay" is meant in the non-sexual-but-still-derogatory way, I think it's wrong. People in the public eye have a duty to try and shape the culture of acceptability - let's not forget that as a BBC DJ Chris is paid by taxpayer's money! That includes all the gay (and other) people who find his continued use of the word offensive. He has a duty in which he is currently derelict.

E

[Console]

Every time someone uses "gay" to describe something that sucks/isn't cool/whatever it cross-reinforces the belief that if something that is crap is gay, conversely anything that is gay is crap. I accept that when someone says "that music is so gay" they don't actually mean that it has a homosexual orientation, and they're expressing their dislike. But there is no way on earth that Chris could get away with saying "that's so nigger" - it just wouldn't be permitted by listeners at large, and rightly so. I know that there is currently no group that uses "nigger" in a colloquial way to describe "lamness/crapness" of things, but the point stands for comparison.

Gay used to mean someone who is happy and carefree, then it meant a person of homosexual orientation (usually male) and now it's in a transition phase from that to meaning crap. Words change, and they also have numerous different meanings. Take for example the word 'lame' which you used as a synonym for 'crap'. The word lame should mean a person with movement difficulties, should they be insulted because the words meaning has been adapted to be used in other situations? If someone is simply expressing their dislike of something then it shouldn't really matter what word they use, especially if there intent is purely to show how they feel about the something in question and not to 'insult' a group of people.

I think that 'nigger' is also a bad comparison to use. As you quite rightly stated, it has never meant crap, and it's negative meaning has only ever meant to insult, whereas the word 'gay' has a negative meaning that does not (necessarily) insult.

[Vivienne]

God give me strength.

[Console]

I find it fascinating that you feel compelled not only to read my posts but to show your emotional state after reading by posting. Is there any particular reason you didn't just not post?

[Vivienne]

I read EVERYONE'S posts.. not just your's. And I wasn't "compelled"........ And also, is there any partic reason your just did not post likewise?

[Console]

Yes, I was in no way shape or form upset by your post, whereas you seemed to be upset by mine, and as you said earlier 'don't use your reply button if you ain't happy'.

[Vivienne]

Fine. Suits me. You're mad, I think. Absolutely mad.

[Vivienne]

Try not to get offended by this Viv but as far as I can see Console was just giving his views, which he is perfectly entitled too. If you're going to start having another "tiff" between the two of you, least do it one of the other threads where you've already done so than on one where people are actually having a serious discussing rather than pissing about.

Ok, Charlalottie... I'm not taking offence. Point taken. I just think he needs more "people skills", and also to stop singling me out for really no reason at all.

[Console]

Viv, I wasn't even talking to you, you started this.

[foot-loose]

Short answer: Chris' homophobia (or not as the case may be) is irrelevant. The language he uses is homophobic.

Longer answer:

Every time someone uses "gay" to describe something that sucks/isn't cool/whatever it cross-reinforces the belief that if something that is crap is gay, conversely anything that is gay is crap. I accept that when someone says "that music is so gay" they don't actually mean that it has a homosexual orientation, and they're expressing their dislike. But there is no way on earth that Chris could get away with saying "that's so ni$$er" - it just wouldn't be permitted by listeners at large, and rightly so. I know that there is currently no group that uses "ni$$er" in a colloquial way to describe "lamness/crapness" of things, but the point stands for comparison.

In fact, to take the example further, Chris wouldn't be able to say "that's so ni$$er" even if he was talking about Black/Afro-Carribean music because simply the word itself is offensive, and from that perspective so should gay be viewed. I'm not gonna get into a debate about Black people saying "ni$$er" - that's a genuinely different debate about reclaiming the words - but it seems to me that the outrage expressed by the British public at the treatment of Shilpa Shetty in BB earlier this year, which used far milder language than that, would support my view.

Finally, even though (as I believe) Chris is not homophobic, and that his use of "gay" is meant in the non-sexual-but-still-derogatory way, I think it's wrong. People in the public eye have a duty to try and shape the culture of acceptability - let's not forget that as a BBC DJ Chris is paid by taxpayer's money! That includes all the gay (and other) people who find his continued use of the word offensive. He has a duty in which he is currently derelict.

E

You put forward a good point, ellipse, however - i'n not sure I completly agree with you.

Firstly, could it not be argued that Chris, as he is being payed by the taxpayer, should reflect the language, and behaviour of his demographic that he is aiming his show at? There has to be a line drawn at some point where people need to say "enough is enough - we can't go on being offended at everything and anything."

Can someone post what it is that Chris has said by the way, coz I still aint sure of the context of this particular "offence".

[Vivienne]

Well, you started on me earlier, by saying my stuff is ridiculous... Gaspode's apple thread is equally ridiculous, yet he didn't get picked on, I did.

[Console]

I said that that particular thread was a joke, which I still think it is, and as for the apple thread, I haven't seen it and therefore have no opinion on it.

[Vivienne]

OK. I'm sorry.

[foot-loose]

Try not to get offended by this Viv but as far as I can see Console was just giving his views, which he is perfectly entitled too. If you're going to start having another "tiff" between the two of you, least do it one of the other threads where you've already done so than on one where people are actually having a serious discussing rather than pissing about.

Well said Charlalalala.

[Gaspode_The_Wonder_Dog]

Every time someone uses "gay" to describe something that sucks/isn't cool/whatever it cross-reinforces the belief that if something that is crap is gay, conversely anything that is gay is crap. I accept that when someone says "that music is so gay" they don't actually mean that it has a homosexual orientation, and they're expressing their dislike. But there is no way on earth that Chris could get away with saying "that's so nigger" - it just wouldn't be permitted by listeners at large, and rightly so. I know that there is currently no group that uses "nigger" in a colloquial way to describe "lamness/crapness" of things, but the point stands for comparison.

Gay used to mean someone who is happy and carefree, then it meant a person of homosexual orientation (usually male) and now it's in a transition phase from that to meaning crap. Words change, and they also have numerous different meanings. Take for example the word 'lame' which you used as a synonym for 'crap'. The word lame should mean a person with movement difficulties, should they be insulted because the words meaning has been adapted to be used in other situations? If someone is simply expressing their dislike of something then it shouldn't really matter what word they use, especially if there intent is purely to show how they feel about the something in question and not to 'insult' a group of people.

I think that 'nigger' is also a bad comparison to use. As you quite rightly stated, it has never meant crap, and it's negative meaning has only ever meant to insult, whereas the word 'gay' has a negative meaning that does not (necessarily) insult.

I think Console is largely correct in this although the transformation of gay into slang for crap is a bit to neat not to have some homosexual connection. I have often referred to people as half-caste and then read an article saying what effectivly you are saying is someone is a half-breed which sounds terrible. I think you can pick on the words all you want but the tone and the context is extremely important.

[foot-loose]

I think you can pick on the words all you want but the tone and the context is extremely important.

Very much so.

As I've asked above, but it may have been missed in the debate - does anyone have a transcript or audio of what he has said?