[catherine]

The only people that have proof are clarevoyents but most people are too stuck up ones own arse to even bother to open their minds to such a thing.

[Vivienne]

The only people that have proof are clarevoyents but most people are too stuck up ones own arse to even bother to open their minds to such a thing.

Hear! Hear! They are the proof indeed, Cat.!

[foot-loose]

Why do we have to have this arguement every fecking week?

[catherine]

Because Viv starts it and then people add comments that just pisses me off.

[Console]

So, where's it going when you die then, Console?

The energy in my body would be released via thermal means, generally speaking. As for the stored energy, it would probably be burnt out.

Oh and Console - Hawking radiation! Quantum fluctuations against a background vacum. The whole premise of vacum energy.

The problem with Hawking radiation is that it's only part of a mathematical model, it hasn't never been detected. Still, there are possible explanations involving anti-particles (that emit radiation upon proximity to the event horizon) that mostly explain it.

I don't know enough about Quantum fluctuations to even know why it'd be a problem.

As for Vacuum Energy, I see no reason why this would violate the first law of thermodynamics; can you?

[Vivienne]

Why do we have to have this arguement every fecking week?

It's not an argument. It's a lively, interesting debate! And my point was slightly different this week, because it was something I was reading in a novel yesterday evening. It was the first time I'd come across a Scientist who actually believed religion & science could co-incide. How cool.

[Andy B]

Viv - it's not up to people to prove something doesn't exist, it's up to the people who believe in something to prove that it DOES exist. Until there is proof of something it must be assumed that it does not exist, the default position of science should always be scepticism.

Console - Vacum energy and Hawking radiation are pretty much the same thing. It says that when you get down to the teeniest tiniest possible scale of the universe that pairs of particles and anti-particles are constantly being created, they diverge and in almost no time at all anhilate one another. Vacum energy attempts to extract this energy. Apparently people are quite close but they've been saying that about cost efficient fusion reactors for decades!

[Vivienne]

Viv - it's not up to people to prove something doesn't exist, it's up to the people who believe in something to prove that it DOES exist. Until there is proof of something it must be assumed that it does not exist, the default position of science should always be scepticism.!

But could it be that there are just certain things people are just not meant to discover, otherwise what would be the point in living? All the mystery would be gone.

[Andy B]

If you want to say that there are certain things that our scientific methods and experimentation methods are unable to detetct at present then that is fine but "...certain things people are just not meant to discover...." implies an intelligent design - something which I am not prepared to accept.

The point in living (as far as I'm concerned) is that we ARE here, just enjoy it. There's still plenty of stuff to be discovered if you look hard enough and mysteries are all around if you care to see them.

[Vivienne]

If you want to say that there are certain things that our scientific methods and experimentation methods are unable to detetct at present then that is fine but "...certain things people are just not meant to discover...." implies an intelligent design - something which I am not prepared to accept.

The point in living (as far as I'm concerned) is that we ARE here, just enjoy it. There's still plenty of stuff to be discovered if you look hard enough and mysteries are all around if you care to see them.

I do see mysteries all around! that's what's fascinating about life! I don't believe tho' we are here just for the good times! I read/saw somewhere that each of us is here to learn something. How cool is that, Andy B.

[Console]

Viv - it's not up to people to prove something doesn't exist, it's up to the people who believe in something to prove that it DOES exist. Until there is proof of something it must be assumed that it does not exist, the default position of science should always be scepticism.

Ah, an argument I've used for years. "The burden of proof is not on us to disprove it, but on you to prove it." Of course, the usual response involves something about how the scriptures came from God and that is the proof of his existence. This then leads into an argument about circular logic and we never get any closer to any sort of proof.

Console - Vacum energy and Hawking radiation are pretty much the same thing.

I thought Vacuum Energy was part of the 'False Vacuum' theory - the theory that there is underlying energy everywhere in the universe due to a barrier that stops the energy being released. It could be used to get around the Hawking Radiation/Vacuum Energy problems.

I read/saw somewhere that each of us is here to learn something.

You've said that a lot, where did you read that?

[Vivienne]

I saw it on OPRAH one afternoon some time back, Cons.

[Console]

Ah, Oprah, a scientific source then? Why would you believe anything Oprah said?

[Vivienne]

Look, it was an interesting discussion on the show. And it was very interesting indeed. Not every discussion has to take place within a scientific environment.

[Zoot]

So you listen to Oprah and think Einstein talked crap?

[Vivienne]

It all makes sense to moi.

[Console]

Look, it was an interesting discussion on the show. And it was very interesting indeed. Not every discussion has to take place within a scientific environment.

And that's fine, but you went from having an interesting, philosophical discussion to believing it - with, what proof, evidence or reason to support it?

[Andy B]

Console - great minds think alike with regard to the definition of science. As for the definition of vacum energy, I've not heard that one before. I may actually in a supreme change of heart wikipedia this as it warrants further investigation...

Viv - I learn something new everyday and I try to do one thing each day that scares me....

I also wear sunscreen.

[Console]

I may actually in a supreme change of heart wikipedia this as it warrants further investigation...

W'oah there! Don't go too far now.

[Andy B]

Appologies for my awful lack of punctuation there as well. I've decided against it for now....

[foot-loose]

It all makes sense to moi.

You make it very difficult to be taken seriously. It's almost like you enjoy winding folks up...

[Andy B]

Something you would never do.....

[MK Chris]

If Foot-loose is winding someone up it's very obvious that it's deliberate and in jest. Viv is totally different.

[Yudster]

I don't think Viv is deliberately trying to wind anyone up. But you can't argue with talent.

[foot-loose]

Something you would never do.....

hah - a fair point.

The difference is, as topher says, I can't tell if Viv actually believes what she is saying or is just saying it to get a reaction.