[Boboff]

I like Foots.

[Munki Bhoy]

It always kinda made me laugh how they had to gang up on the fox with hundreds of people, dogs, guns and horses. Seriously, how hard is the fox?!

[foot-loose]

But its still no crueller than a fox starving to death because there isn't enough food to be had or dying slowly from the effects of poisoning, or dying slowly and in agony after being hit by a car and not killed. None of those scenarios is natural, and they are the three most common ways for foxes (and most other wildlife) to die.

I see what you are saying, but the fundamental difference is that when they are poisoned (accidentally) or knocked down, it is not a deliberate act*. While it is not "natural" as such, it is more natural than a fox hunt.

If they are being poisoned on purpose by say a farmer then it is going to be done for necessity rather than pleasure. I don't deny that its a bit poor for the fox, but there is still a reason for why it happens.

I wouldn't have had a problem with it continuing either.

So what about other forms of blood sports? Dog fighting for example?

And Im not convinced it has been banned - I am sure there is some stupid arsed law which says you are allowed to hunt foxes with dogs, your just not allowed to let the dogs actually kill the fox. However, should the dogs get to the fox before you can call them off, and if the fox is already in a bad state, then it would only be right to allow the dogs to finish it off.

[Sunny So Cal]

I'm really not sure I can agree that foxhunting is "cruel". Being a wild animal isn't like Beatrix Potter stories - strange though it might seem, for most wild animals there are far worse ways to go than chased by dogs and killed quickly. As for them being traumatised - thats pure anthropomorphism, wild animals chase and kill each other all the time. If we hadn't killed all the large predators in this country (wild cats, wolves, bears, eagle owls etc) foxes would have this kind of thing happening to them every flippin day. Thats what its like to be a wild animal - not like in the picture books.

Working at the wildlife rehab care center we were constantly inundated with hawks, falcons, owls, squirrels, egrets, herons, pelicans, rabbits, opossums, gophers, rats, skunks and other odd assortment of Southern California wildlife that had had the misfortune to have been * up by dogs (or cats). It is one thing to sit there and say it's all fine and dandy for fox hunting to exist but quite another when you see the end result of an animal having been torn up. It's quite a sad instance when you're sitting there watching its life drain away because someone can't control their dog. Most times the animal would have died during examination or we'd have to put it down.

As I said to Yuds this morning via IM, fox 'hunting' to me is no different than 'canned hunts' where you get the idiots who will call up an animal 'reserve' and pay to 'hunt' a lion or other large cat. The 'reserve' people put out one semi-tamed animal that has associated with humans its entire life and was most likely bought from a zoo or other animal facility. Then the 'hunter' shows up, brings his pack of dogs which trees the cat and then the hunter shoots it out of the tree. Wow. That's really difficult. Like shooting fish in a barrel. The demented bastards.

Additionally, saying that foxes being chased by packs of dogs is natural is incorrect. All your large predators (as stated) were killed off so foxes pretty much are at the top of the animal order in the UK. For their entire existence they've never been chased by anything other than these mis-treated dogs. I'm sorry, I have a view of fox hunters as big men with little dicks.

And, on a completely separate note, making me smile today was the very sweet email I received from Comedy Dave this morning.

[SAV1OUR]

Heh, any excuse to relive some classic Borat, before he became big and everything:

the very sweet email I received from Comedy Dave this morning.

Oh, pleeease do tell us dear peasants more, is it all champagne dinners in the land of 'Ollywood? Do they have a secret knock and everythink? Please do supply a chink of light into the lives of us humble rain-soaked normos, I do beg of you.

This post was brought to you whilst under the influence of alcohol

[Andy B]

Nah. I say what's private should remain private. I wouldn't*



*Probably.

[Sunny So Cal]

Thank you, Andy. It was a reply to me and it was Christmas wishes. Like all the photos taken in September of me with the team, I had no intention of sharing it but with a select few.

As for you being a peasant, SAVIOUR, I'm not in a position to comment. I can say that all of us here in Southern California have champagne dinners nightly and we all have secret knocks. It keeps out the irritating * and any rainclouds. We thrive in sunshine, don't you know?

[Yudster]

And Im not convinced it has been banned - I am sure there is some stupid arsed law which says you are allowed to hunt foxes with dogs, your just not allowed to let the dogs actually kill the fox. However, should the dogs get to the fox before you can call them off, and if the fox is already in a bad state, then it would only be right to allow the dogs to finish it off.

I'm not entirely sure, but you are probably right, I think the law was a typical piece of opaque legislation. The few hunts in this area have stopped I believe, which makes boxing day a somewhat safer time to go for a walk in the countryside, for people and foxes!

My favourite kind of hunting with dogs is drag hunting with bloodhounds. When I was a fit athletic 19 year old (back in the 17th century) I occasionally ran as "fox" for a drag hunt (so called not because the men dress as women, but because the fox is a person who drags a sack of scent to make a trail for the bloodhounds to follow) - hearing the eerie sound of the bloodhounds baying in the distance and knowing they and the horses are chasing you is the BIGGEST rush. Absolutely brilliant. I fully expected drag hunting to increase in popularity after the hunting ban, but it doesn't seem to have done so. Shame.

[Ezza]

Bugsy Malone is on TV today.

[Andy B]

You're too young to remember Bugsy Malone surely? Ahh Jodie Foster. Don't worry I'm not going all John Hinkley here. Besides Regan's already dead.

[foot-loose]

My favourite kind of hunting with dogs is drag hunting with bloodhounds. When I was a fit athletic 19 year old (back in the 17th century) I occasionally ran as "fox" for a drag hunt (so called not because the men dress as women, but because the fox is a person who drags a sack of scent to make a trail for the bloodhounds to follow) - hearing the eerie sound of the bloodhounds baying in the distance and knowing they and the horses are chasing you is the BIGGEST rush. Absolutely brilliant. I fully expected drag hunting to increase in popularity after the hunting ban, but it doesn't seem to have done so. Shame.

I've heard of this and have no problem with it. I don't quite see the fun in it myself, but hey ho.

[Andy B]

The Jaguar Skills special Christmas mix on Radio 1 right now. Anyone who misses this, I urge you to listen again and you won't be disappointed.

[Yudster]

My favourite kind of hunting with dogs is drag hunting with bloodhounds. When I was a fit athletic 19 year old (back in the 17th century) I occasionally ran as "fox" for a drag hunt (so called not because the men dress as women, but because the fox is a person who drags a sack of scent to make a trail for the bloodhounds to follow) - hearing the eerie sound of the bloodhounds baying in the distance and knowing they and the horses are chasing you is the BIGGEST rush. Absolutely brilliant. I fully expected drag hunting to increase in popularity after the hunting ban, but it doesn't seem to have done so. Shame.

I've heard of this and have no problem with it. I don't quite see the fun in it myself, but hey ho.

Its the combination of cross country racing, being chased and hearing the hound of the bloody baskervilles baying for blood in the distance that gets the adrenaline flowing I think. And its quite a challenge to give them a good run, a pack of dogs and horseriders can move a lot faster than one runner, and although they give you a start its not a massive one, so you need to be creative and sneaky in laying your trail. I wish it were more widespread.

[Andy B]

I'd be buggered. I'd get to the first wall 50 yards away and need to stop for a fag! I'd be torn to shreds in seconds.

[foot-loose]

I was meaning more how was it fun for those on horseback. Also, are these bloodhounds well treated?

[MK Chris]

I'd be rubbish at that as well... I think I'm a reasonable short-distance runner, but that would surely neeed to be middle to long-distance and like you say creative, whicvh I've never been.

[Yudster]

I was meaning more how was it fun for those on horseback. Also, are these bloodhounds well treated?

I believe they are - they seemed well fed, glossy, fit and full of energy and to have a real sense of purpose as a pack, which I suppose you anthropomorphic pet-people would call "enjoying themselves"! Bloodhound packs are considerably smaller than foxhound packs (because the dogs are a hell of a lot bigger I guess). I can't speak for all hunts of course, and I am aware that the conditions some foxhound packs have been kept in leaves a lot to be desired (and brings up issues of cruelty which I find far more compelling than the ones surrounding the hunt itself) - but certainly I thought the dogs were glorious on the occasions I met them. Even when they were all jumping on top of me trying to lick me to death. Very slobbery.

[Bonanzoid]

I got home today, so that's pretty cool. Cold though. Damn cold...

[MK Chris]

which I suppose you anthropomorphic pet-people would call "enjoying themselves"!

I don't think it's anthropomorphism to accept that human beings aren't the only creatures capable of enjoying themselves. All animals, in my opinion, have the ability to experience pleasure in the same way that they experience pain - probably not to the same extent that we do, but to some extent (probably different depending on the level of intelligence of the animal.)

[MK Chris]

http://www.27bslash6.com/matthewsparty.html

[Sunny So Cal]

which I suppose you anthropomorphic pet-people would call "enjoying themselves"!

I don't think it's anthropomorphism to accept that human beings aren't the only creatures capable of enjoying themselves. All animals, in my opinion, have the ability to experience pleasure in the same way that they experience pain - probably not to the same extent that we do, but to some extent (probably different depending on the level of intelligence of the animal.)

I agree wholeheartedly. Anyone that has ever seen the expression on a dog's face when you take it for a ride in the car or for a long run will know that it's enjoying itself.

Lottie, your bakery items sound really good. Especially the Mars bar cookies.

Toph, loved the 'you're not invited' thing. I particularly liked that their heads are only separated by a few inches and if he puts his ear to the wall he can hear him and that 'Simon' is quite violent. Good thing he's got those swords.

[foot-loose]

which I suppose you anthropomorphic pet-people would call "enjoying themselves"!

I don't think it's anthropomorphism to accept that human beings aren't the only creatures capable of enjoying themselves. All animals, in my opinion, have the ability to experience pleasure in the same way that they experience pain - probably not to the same extent that we do, but to some extent (probably different depending on the level of intelligence of the animal.)

I agree wholeheartedly.

Thirded.

[Boboff]

This is funny, Dave's giggles are good for the soul



And Toph, I am sure you can put a link to where this may have been posted or hosted in here before, but I don't care, if it's duplicated.

[Yudster]

I don't think it's anthropomorphism to accept that human beings aren't the only creatures capable of enjoying themselves. All animals, in my opinion, have the ability to experience pleasure in the same way that they experience pain - probably not to the same extent that we do, but to some extent (probably different depending on the level of intelligence of the animal.)

I agree wholeheartedly.

Thirded.

You're still all wrong. Its ludicrous to assume that simply because an expression on a dog's face resembles something which, when seen on a human face, we associate with an emotion, the dog is automatically feeling that emotion. But obviously their behaviour and demeanour is an indication of what instinct synapses are firing at any given time - and if you want to call that "happy", why not?

Bunny huggers are so sweet.

[MK Chris]

I'm in no way a bunny hugger and I don't agree with the whole smiling thing, but why is it ludicrous to assume animals can experience pleasure? If they have the capacity to suffer (and they clearly do), why can't they have the reverse?